Audio system poll, lets hear your opinion

[fourthmeal]

Ok, trying this again,...my first attempt ended up being ruined by the 10 minute creation timer imposed on polls. Dunno what to do about that..

So, I have a Mazdaspeed 3, and I am planning on replacing the factory sound system with a high SQ near-competition quality one. I competed in the past, but being a few years out of it, I thought I'd get your opinion regarding modern technology.

The car's factory head unit must be kept. Its integration within the car is too deep to not use it. So, the stock stays up there. However, my plans are to locate an Audiocontrol LOC with EQ and crossover functions in the glove compartment, as close to the stock wiring as possible. Also, the spare tire MUST stay in the car, in the stock location.

The rest of the system, things that will be the same no matter what I end up with component-wise, will be: FatMat, BrownBread, or eDead dampening, Streetwires interconnects and 4 gauge power wire, and Stinger's 5 farad hybrid cap. Also, size wise, the fronts will be 6.5" components, with the crossovers mounted in the trunk, rears running 5x7 stock or 5.25", and sub(s) 10".

Ok, tell me which you'd go with, OR plan me one! BTW, you'll notice that this equipment will run about 2000-3000, which is my budget. I do plan on buying most of my goodies from Woofers, etc. online, because they have an AAA Better Business Bureau report, something I find EXTREMELY comforting. The other places I'd consider buying are SoundDomain, and SonicElectronix. If you have a place that does well, please let me know.

The .jpg's you see below are of my trunk, and a drawing I've created showing the usable trunk space.

 

[Poseur]

Firstoff, PLEASE I beg of you do not do business with ED, they have a LONG history of screwing people over starting from close personal friends moving along to joe average consumer, etc. I realize they'vce created a comfortable happy little net-world for themselves, but believe me when I say that they are NOT at all intrested in sound quality, or the evolution of 12v audio, they're simply a business trying to make money, buy from the lowest bidder and sell for top dollar (though you'll think your'e getting a steal) to the honest individual. Furthermore the company's run by a true asshole. Search around in whatever audio forums you can that are NOT controleld edited etc by ed and see for yourself. Yes, I've personalyl had ALOT of issues with ED, I've owned 3 of their amps taht have been worthless piles of garbage, that while they were warrantied, did need to be sent in for such service atleast twice each (I've NEVER had a single problem witha ny other amp) They also straightup denied me warranty coverage on a pair of very blatantly defective speakers which a good deal of industry-folk stepped in on and pointed out how this was the case. So yes I'm jaded, but I'm one of countless others. Ben simply covers his tracks and moves on I'm not sure how it's managed to keep on.

Above and beyond that... CDT's another primarily net-hype company, albeit one with decent ethics and one I do believe means well, but I've always found their speakers to be a tad unrefined. (I've owned 2pairs and multiple configurations of their higherend components) Look to brands like Adire, Image Dynamics, Focal, Boston, JL, Diamond, DLS, Morel, Rainbow.... But primarily, don't ask us, use your own ears, go around and audition as many speakers as you can. Personally If I were to blindly recommend a speaker, I'd say JL, Morel or Focal tend to agree with most discerning audiophiles.

Nowthen, onto what really counts... rear speakers, no. don't need 'em don't waste your money on them, and definately don't waste money and power amplifying them. "rear-fill" is one of the most overused and non-understood buzzwords of 12v audio. I'd really honestly take some time and look at some SQ rigs and see what's going on. rear-speakers are rare, and take ALOT of tuning to pull off properly.

Another thing, nix the cap unless you really want it for show. They've been proven prettymuch worthless time and again, they simply add more drain, and more possibility for something to go wrong.

I know I'm prettymuch a nobody to you, but that does indeed cover alot of the latest techstuff or gossip atleast in the industry. Personally I don't compete, though I've been told by some competitors after hearing my car that I should. After they get into the details of my setup, settings, etc. Mostly I just like good, clean music, and hope to share some of the lessons I've learned over the years.

 

[Rally Ninja]

Reading all the forums from termpro to sounddomain. Scared me away from eD for sure. As for CDT. I had the lower level classic stuff and wasnt as impressed as the net hype was.

Those polk SR seem to be pretty nice stuff from the reviews I have read. The diamonds are nice as well. Customer service/ tech support from Diamond is great.

 

[FoxPro5]

Scratch the CDT and ED crap...they are basically the same. Rebadged Vifa drivers sold at insane mark up prices! I have no problem with the company, I had a flatcone driver once and it was sweet. But there's this guy that works there who's name is Ben....and he's a flagrant dickhead.

The brand name on your gear does NOT make it competition grade. I can put Scan-speak drivers in my car with Brax amps and n McIntosh HU....BUT it will ONLY sound as good as my tuning and installation experience allows.

Put RAAMmat and SecondSkin on your deading list.

Forget about the cap. IF you need it, I will be much later.

Pull the plug on the rears if you want to have any type of correct image. Or unless you are Richard Clark. This opens up your amp options a lot. You could run the XA4000 and get 125w to the fronts and 350w to the subs. Or you could run a two channel to the fronts and get a seperate sub amp. Or you could get a 5 channel and bridge the front and rear to the fronts and then the sub off the sub channel. Many, many options.

Find the speakers that you like first, and then worry about the amps next. 90% of the sold state amps...maybe even higher...are all made over seas in China, Korea or Taiwan. The perceived "sound quality" differences among them is marginal at best.

Put the new Pioneer Premier PRS components on your "to listen to" list.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

[fourthmeal]

(mswerd) on the rear speaker issue, but I have a reason for the need of rears: I've got friends in the car who like music too. Granted, when its time for imaging, I'm all for killing the rears. For the front, I've always considered CDT (especially the EuroSport line) to be top of the totem pole. However, money no object (and it just might come down to buying them anyway), I'd go with Polk SR components for the front end. They are the shiz. They use the Vifa tweeter with the concentric ring/silk and phase plug design. I heard the Polk home audio setup that uses these tweeters, and the imaging, detail, and overall smoothness was very impressive.

For rears, I may just leave the stockers in, and run them off the deck, and see how it sounds.

After many, many hours of deliberating on what to do, here is my semi-final plan:

I'll go with either a top of the line LOC or Audiocontrol's LC6i LOC/crossover, mounted as close as possible to the stock HU.

I'm going with Eclipse XA amps, the XA4000 4 ch., bridged into 2, and XA1000 mono for the sub. These amps are a good value from what I hear, and their very low current draw seems ideal for me, since I can tell the MS3 doesn't have what I'd call a "robust" alternator. This means I can run 4 gauge all the way to the trunk, and split into 8 for the short runs to each amp, with no complaints from the amps themselves. Also, a CAP might not be necessary because of their efficiency. Two birds, one stone, blah blah.

For fronts, I'm getting more and more fond of the SR series Polk components. Since hearing the home theater versions of the design, I have lusted after the same sound. The SR's look to be the best reviewed components by a few mags. They are about $500 a set on the web, which is pricey, but hey, they rock, right?

For rears, I'll leave them alone for now, but I'll consider dropping in OEM sized 5x7 Polk MOMO coaxials if the sound isn't acceptable for the passengers.

For Subs, its between the Polk SR 10", and the Eclipse 8000 10". According to my results garnered from WinISD box modeling program, the Eclipse shows a significant advantage in low frequency output in an anechoic world. So, with the hatchback's cabin gain, and some careful EQ tuning (the EQ's on the amps ought to work for this), the Eclipse should run lower and more forcefully, especially with a decent sized box. Which means I'll need to run the sub inverted, with the magnet side poking out into the trunk area. Not exactly ideal for my stealth plan, but damnit, I want a good sub, and they all seem to be deep machines, if they are to play in a small box (what an oxymoronic thing to do, deep sub plays well in a tiny box, thinner subs need more space) Take a look at the WinISD screenshot of the Polk SR in an ideal .707 box, vs. the Eclipse using the same. The Eclipse has a distinct advantage, IMO.

For the rest, I'm leaning heavily towards KnuKonceptz wiring. I've used them in the past, and I totally forgot about them. They are a great value, and the quality is on par with the name brands. I dig their silver coated speaker wire, for about $1.19 a foot. Great wire, I've tried it. I also like their black-metal look. Clean. For sound dampener, man there are a lot of options. I'm boycotting Dynamat at the moment, simply because I hate paying a premium for a regular product. Raamat is good, so that may be an option.

From your gathered opinions, I'll steer clear of Elemental Designs. Thanks for the guidance with that decision. With CDT, I never thought of them as a bad company, or even a less-then-excellent one. However, I do know they are spendy. The value I found on the EuroSport line ($700 speaker set, $299 sale from an auth'd dealer), well it sounded pretty good.

Well, I'm off to rip out the trunk and start the fiberglassing prep. I'll post as it goes. I don't have the funds to put the gear in yet, so I'm just going to prep and create the basic form for now. Something any brand could use.

Later!

 

[1sty]

Polk, end of story

 

[FoxPro5]

Trust your ears...not those peer reviews. That guy over at CA&E loved the Lotus set...said it was the best he ever tested or some s*** and then went and said the same thing on the Polk. (rolleyes)

Also, just so you know on the Eclipse XA series amps the crossovers are not defeatable....which means they are always on. Shouldn't be a big deal if you are running a passive comp set though.

Nice amps. I really thing B&O is on to something. More power at higher effieciency is a good thing in a car.

 

[fourthmeal]

yeah, I'm thinking that too. And if the budget suddenly gets small, then I think I'll go MOMO front components. Not expensive at all, and good overall sound. Yes, I demo'd them.

I'm definitely loving the Eclipse sub though. The response curve it presents is a nice one. Even the almighty Adire Brahma sub can't match the same response curve. Granted, the anechoic response output is merely a gross representation of what one can expect out of a sub, I feel that lower is better, for this measurement. Eclipse must be able to play that low because of its unique voice coil. Hmm...what do you guys think?

I could easily go all Polk w/ their amps and their sub, but I like the fact that Eclipse amps use one of my favorite audio amplifier technolgies...ICEpower, something that Bang & Olufsen invented, if I recall correctly. The upper end Alpine amps use the same tech. It works!

I've started dynamatting the trunk area where I'll be doing a simple fiberglass enclosure to maximize the available space under the trunk cover. Why dynamat? Because, while cleaning out my garage tonight, I found about 12 sq. feet of Extreme. After thats gone, I'll order Raamat or B-Quiet.

 

[Poseur]

It's easy to get lost/hungup on numbers. Thatsaid, Eclipse has always been a company with their heads out of their asses.

 

[fourthmeal]

LMAO...guess that means they are good, then. The whole eclipse line is nice except for their components. I don't like their top of the line setup. The whole 3 way thing w/ the dual tweeters...well it won't work in the sail panels, lets just say that.

Keep the ideas coming if you got em. I'll always listen and consider.

 

[FoxPro5]

yeah, I'm thinking that too. And if the budget suddenly gets small, then I think I'll go MOMO front components. Not expensive at all, and good overall sound. Yes, I demo'd them.

I'm definitely loving the Eclipse sub though. The response curve it presents is a nice one. Even the almighty Adire Brahma sub can't match the same response curve. Granted, the anechoic response output is merely a gross representation of what one can expect out of a sub, I feel that lower is better, for this measurement. Eclipse must be able to play that low because of its unique voice coil. Hmm...what do you guys think?

I could easily go all Polk w/ their amps and their sub, but I like the fact that Eclipse amps use one of my favorite audio amplifier technolgies...ICEpower, something that Bang & Olufsen invented, if I recall correctly. The upper end Alpine amps use the same tech. It works!

I've started dynamatting the trunk area where I'll be doing a simple fiberglass enclosure to maximize the available space under the trunk cover. Why dynamat? Because, while cleaning out my garage tonight, I found about 12 sq. feet of Extreme. After thats gone, I'll order Raamat or B-Quiet.

Well if you are looking at the Eclipse and the LMT, then also look at TC Sounds drivers. TC is the build house for Eclipse and other...they are pretty secretive about it.

I had a pair of XA4000's and they definitely do rated power. They play clean up to like 50kHz or something. True you can't really hear that high but it can make a subtile difference in the high frequency roll off. Most tweeters start to roll off at like 10kHz or so and the first order harmonic is 20kHz, but that's the limit of most amplifier's ability. CA&E mag tested the efficiency above 90% on the XA2000. But he did make a comment about the crossover section. http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0609_cae_eclipse_xa2000_amp/

If I went back to a passive comp set, I'd run probably pick up a set of Rainbow Profi Kickbass and an Eclipse 34230 (370x2 @ 4, pure A/B balls) and call it a day.

Nothing wrong with Dynamat Extreme. It has excellent viscoelastic properties and goes on pretty easy. Don rated in the top 3 in the SDS. I have it in my car and I like it. Consider getting some type of barrier loading/sound reduction material like OverKill or Ensolite to kill ambient buzzes, road noise and reflections under the dash.

Where do you plan to mount your tweeters?

 

[fourthmeal]

I'll check into TC sounds, thanks for the tipoff.

And, there IS something wrong w/ Dynamat Extreme. It is overpriced! I've used it in maybe 6 cars of my own, and countless customer cars...but honestly I'd really only buy it if I could still get it for cost. The other brands do it equally or better, for less. If Dynamat was less about the profit margins in the 75 point range, then I'd consider it again.

I plan on mounting the tweeters in the stock location, in the sail panels on the front doors. I'll be using a flush-mount setup.

 

[fourthmeal]

ahh, update

here's some pics of what I've got done so far. Its slow going because I don't have much free time,

 

[Poseur]

Hmmm, interesting indeed. Notsure what I think about the inverted sub setup, I guess you've got a shallow spot limitation and such, and I recall you mentioning previously the extra airspace, but realistically a sub's displacement isnot THAT much of a factor when dealing with fiberglass anyway. Unless you're the type who likes looking at the business end, and depending on what other functionality you're trying to reserve, I'd definately try to flip the thing, and protect your magnet.

but yay fiberglasshigh... damn. Must be nice living in vegas. Last time I tried to fiberglass in January I wound up going in stages of pre-heating the oven to 200degrees or so, then turning it off and tossing my kickpanels in. kitchen wasn't quite right for quite sometime.

 

[chuyler1]

Somehow I missed this thread. As mentioned above, stay away from eD and CDT. They both fall under the 'internet hype' category. I'm sure the speakers sound good and you'll be happy with them but if you could demo them next to some equivalently priced speakers you would see they aren't worth the price.

If you still have your heart set on CDT, check out www.diymobileaudio.com and www.madisound.com. You can pretty much piece together a CDT set from the original Vifa drivers and end up spending half as much. Actually, www.diymobileaudio.com might open you up to some other options that don't fall into the 'car audio' spectrum but will make your dollar go much farther.

Before you go picking equipment though, you should really figure out what your budget looks like. Speakers, amps, wiring, etc all adds up and its good to know how much money you are working with before you choose anything.

As far as power goes, don't be fooled by the bigger-is-better marketing hype. I am running 500w to a pair of 8"s and it is more than enough for average listening due to the excellent bass enhancing properties of a hatchback. Choosing a low-power solution from the get-go will save you lots of money and you won't be complaining about dimming lights.

Rear speakers are for amateurs. Enough said.

Speakers: As I said above, don't limit yourself to the mainstream car audio companies. Keep brands like DLS, Seas, and even Dayton in mind. However the top offerings from Alpine, Kicker, Polk, Eclipse, and Infinity are all decent speakers if you are willing to pay the name-brand price.

Subs: Eclipse and JL Audio are the front runners IMO when it comes to subwoofers but there are many other brands out there. Check out that Tang Band slim subwoofer too...it might suit your needs.

Amps: I used to be on the watt-is-a-watt bandwagon. That was until I upgraded to a pair of DLS Ultimate amplifiers. Going from 75-110w RMS from an MTX amp to 50-85w RMS from a DLS amp was like night and day and I will never go back to the bargain amps again. You should also consider running active (especially if you don't use rear speakers). Removing the passive crrossovers from the signal path cleans up the sound considerably at loud levels and it gives you more tuning freedom.

 

[fourthmeal]

hmmm...interesting on CDT. I am suprised to hear that they are in the same class as eD. Sad, as well.

I'm nowhere near a newbie when it comes to systems. I owned PerformanceEdge, a shop that I started up with some friends, in KC. I didn't keep it long enough to make a name for myself, but I had fun, ya know? I've done maybe 100 cars, which is nothing at all to brag about, but I can safely say I do know how to install. and budget. However, as always, I appreciate any and all advice from all POV's, so I don't mind getting reminded of the basics.

Since the Eclipse amps are using ICEpower, my favorite new technology in amps (good ol B&O technology), I figured running them would result in far less charging system stress. The power output of the Eclipse amps is really in line with what I want, so I figure the added benefit of efficiency will make them a shoe-in.

 

[fourthmeal]

wait wait wait...you're telling me that a set of CDT Audio Eurosport components, the same components that I've heard in competitions, and seen killer reviews of all over the place, that they are no good? Or are you saying that they aren't good for the price? Because, at retail, yes, I'd have to agree. $700+ is ridiculous. However, woofersetc has the ES610 set for $299. Thats an Authorized dealer as well. And at that price, I think I'd be hard pressed to make my own set. I know, I tried! I was craving the radiation ring tweeter that Polk uses in their SR speakers and their LSi home stuff. And with a decent matching woofer to finish up a setup, I'm WAY over the price of $299. Honestly, what setup are you talking about from diy and/or madisound?

Lets say I go with the CDT Euros for 299, can anything built either piece by piece or bought complete compete with that? My backup plan is the Eclipse SC8264 set. Heard them, and was impressed for the cash.

Rears will be for the passengers when I take friends out clubbing with us or when we just want to cruise. I'll turn them off for my personal use. I don't think I've ever competed nor demonstrated a system w/ rears in my day. However, passengers are people too. Deck power may be sufficient here though.

Currently, I'm working on the fiberglassing of that box I drew in red on my pictures. I think I'm going to work it so the sub ends up normally installed. Reason: this new 8000 sub from Eclipse uses the LMT technology, BUT it makes a bit of mechanical noise that is audible if one inverts the sub. So, to quell the noise, a sealed box with the sub facing the right way will cure it.

 

[Poseur]

I've had the HD's and ES's in a couple configurations and was less then pleased when comparing directly to even much less expensive true component sets. I wish I could say differently because I DO like the cdt guys, they helped me out ALOT when eD screwed me over... lower priced speakers I prefered in a direct comparison include; JL Vr, Boston Pro's, Infinity kappa perfects, Kicker RS, Hell even infinity refrences were giving them a run. It was rather fun for me to do this comparison it was sorta my own personal high endish board that I did when I got a group of customers together who were all intrested in something beyond coaxes and managd to sell my boss on it when I promised him I'd personally EP all speakers so he wouldn'thave to put out any $ init (he was pretty anti-12v at the time) I had limited sources and funds, but was giddy to have such a selection.

My theory isthat their modular approach in making multiple mid/tweeter combinations work with a SINGLE (or mix and match grab-bag) crossover is a lazy solution. I think if they put their resources into developing a more narrowly focused speaker line they might be able to pin something but as-is it's just a bit scattered. I can't remember the exact crossovers, but I had 4 variations of silk and metal tweets and was using 5.25" sets of everything (I much prefer 5's tonally to 6's) I tried any combinations and variances of settings I could to get thigns sounding "right" directly compared to other speakers on the soundboard at work. Maybe the newer versions (if they have changed I've honestly stopped paying attention) are more polished, but every combination (recommended or not ) cameup just sounding rough around the edges to me. Not nearly as refined as all of the bigger players' samplings.

If you personally like the cdt's by all means go for it, but perhaps there's a reason why you get such a great deal... ? Again, good company well-meaning guys, my ears personally just don't agree with the product asmuch as others. A note on reviews... Ever notice how often you find them accompanied by advertising revenue? How often will you read reviews that tell you a speaker is crap? I'm not saying cdt is, but for the $ (yes even the discounted one) Most other options to me seem more refined


Personally I'm still running partial-passives, the sheer magic involved and amazing resources some companies have is worth it. I'm absolutely tickled by my kicker ss's (I still feel weird thinking of anything kicker as GOOD sq speakers, but that's what my ears told ME) But Were I to be starting from scratch I'd likely piece something together as well.
If that route tickles your fancy, adire recently introduced a 4ohm extremis 6.4 midbass driver (1"P2P excursion and XBL2) My bookshelves paired with morel tweets on a simple dan-designed crossover blow my mind at home I'm sure they wouldn't disappoint in-car.

Mostly, if you're not wanting to experiment I'd try to go out and listen to asmuch as you can if at all possible. really only YOUR ears will tell you what you like.

 

[fourthmeal]

hmmm...yes, I likey the Adire! I've not auditioned them, but Dan Wiggins is the Shiznit.

I think the XBL 2 motor loses to the LMT, which is the only reason I haven't put a Brahma on my list.

I'm going to keep a mix-match system in mind, and I can do it actively because I'm going with an Audiocontrol crossover, so it will be simple enough to make that work.

 

[FoxPro5]

I bet you dollars to doughnuts that you can build a 2-way active set using Peerless or Excel drivers that will walk all over those CDT's. Even Dayton Reference will sound great at half the price.

Skip the rears. Seriously waste of money. I have passengers in my car and they can hear the tunes FROM THE FRONT just fine.

Take the money you would spend them and invest in an active x-over and make the most out of your front stage. I have a PPI DCX-730 that I could sell you that would give you more flexibility than you could ever dream of. You just need a single pair analog outs and you are set!