20lb safe or not.

[jville]

Just because you don't have concerns doesn't mean your motor isn't at risk.

What sort of AFRs are you seeing? What's your injector duty cycle look like? EGTs? How does ambient temps/humidity affect these parameters? What about altitude? etc, etc, etc.

There are a ton of things you need to validate over a lot more than 12k miles to be sure a tune is safe. This is in fact the biggest reason places like Cobb take *forever* to release their staged kits upon the masses... because they want to be reasonably sure that no one's going to blow up their motor running their stuff. Anyone that's not going through those steps needs to qualify their claims about cranking up the boost with a "your mileage may vary" and "try it at your own risk".

IMO, just turning up the boost is *never* a good idea. Step one is getting all the proper gauges (boost, EGT, wideband O2 at a minimum) so you can analyze the health of the motor. Step two is making sure you've done everything to support that extra boost: usually that means making sure you won't run out of fuel, which means larger injectors and a bigger fuel pump (unless the MS3 injectors are only running a 50-60% duty cycle at the factory boost levels, and even then you may still need a fuel pump). Then you need the ability to remap the spark/fuel tables to properly match the additional boost, so you're looking at an AP or similar engine management. Now you can turn up the boost.

At least if you want to do it properly. Or you can go the DSM route and hit your wastegate with a hammer and run 13s until crankwalk parks your Eclipse in the junk yard.

Captain i'm doing this STOCK. K&N drop in and NGK plugs. Thats it, no boost controller or anything.

 

[sperry]

Captain i'm doing this STOCK. K&N drop in and NGK plugs. Thats it, no boost controller or anything.

Maybe I just don't know much about the specifics of the MS3 motor, but if I were making more boost with just plugs and a filter, I would be asking myself what's wrong with the car that it's overboosting, instead of being excited about the "free" performance I'm getting. The ECU should be controlling the boost to the factory programmed levels regardless of the air filter on the car.

 

[LBV]

Is it normal to dial BACK the timing a bit if upping the boost (assuming the AFR's are plenty rich)?

 

[jville]

MS6 in my case. 17.4 is project stock max boost. Nothing is wrong with my car as you put it. I have personally checked all of my engines parameters all within specs. Its not "free" performance as you put it. .6 pounds extra boost is not signs of a malfunctioning ecu

 

[sperry]

Is it normal to dial BACK the timing a bit if upping the boost (assuming the AFR's are plenty rich)?

Well, direct injection is a different bird, so I can't speak to the MS3 specifically.

But in non-DISI tuning, it's usually one or the other, more agressive timing, or more aggressive boost. The Japanese tuners tend to go after higher base compression, more timing, and more rpms, while the US tuners tend to go after more boost and more displacement... I think more boost tends to work better here in the states because we have crappy gas...

So the short answer is "yes", more boost means dialing back the timing a bit. Or you can just run 100 octane and do both.

 

[sleeping_blue]

ok this is getting old, i am turning up the boost in my car to 19 psi. somethings just dont make sence. mazda as a company that has to honor warrenty work is not going to put out a motor that is so close to being pushed over the edge and likely to blow same going for the turbo. i really dont think mazda would push the turbo so close to its completly maxed out. were you cant even add 1 or 2 extra psi. let see if i remember right 1 psi is = t0 11hp so if i were to not turn up the boost and did bolt ons
1 psi 11hp same as intake
2 psi 22hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe
3 psi 33hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe, manifold
4 psi 44hp or same as running 20 psi stock would be intake, dp, mid , manifold and intercooler. whitch is what i am running. stock psi dyno 292 no harm to the motor at all. other then running hella rich.
what i am getting at is mazda isent going to build motors/turbos that are that weak. there going to cover there ass to avoid honoring major recalls for busted motors cause there already on the edge.

 

[MS3077]

ok this is getting old, i am turning up the boost in my car to 19 psi. somethings just dont make sence. mazda as a company that has to honor warrenty work is not going to put out a motor that is so close to being pushed over the edge and likely to blow same going for the turbo. i really dont think mazda would push the turbo so close to its completly maxed out. were you cant even add 1 or 2 extra psi. let see if i remember right 1 psi is = t0 11hp so if i were to not turn up the boost and did bolt ons
1 psi 11hp same as intake
2 psi 22hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe
3 psi 33hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe, manifold
4 psi 44hp or same as running 20 psi stock would be intake, dp, mid , manifold and intercooler. whitch is what i am running. stock psi dyno 292 no harm to the motor at all. other then running hella rich.
what i am getting at is mazda isent going to build motors/turbos that are that weak. there going to cover there ass to avoid honoring major recalls for busted motors cause there already on the edge.

Go for it!

 

[justa4banger]

Sleeping Blue......... you assume too much.

look turning up the boost will give you more PEAK power ok. Cylinder pressures are through the roof for such low rpm (high trq numbers), this creates alot of stress on rods. Another thing to point out is even with fat a/f ratios you can get detonation when the pressure is high enough and the octane is inadequate..... i imagine for those that did pop engine on higher boost, they probably got detonation and didn't know it till after it was too late. Or the load was too much at such low rpm.

the fact of the matter is this........you want more HP. Do everything you can to uncork the motors restriction to high rpm flow. look at the dyno charts. the high trq numbers are SPIKES. i can show you Dyno's where my SVO did the same thing. Hell just changing the exhaust housing from a .48 ar to a .63 ar gave me 32whp, reduced my boost spikes, and smoothed out the trq curve which raise the HP.

the stock turbo is too small. i promise just swapping turbos to a more effcient and match setup will yield GREAT power results.

This dyno is of my 2.3 ford. look at the trq, it spikes hard and falls pretty fast.....look how late in the rpm band it peaks te trq and it died fast. this setup was difficult to drive, the power was LITERALLY on a switch

this dyno is the same turbo, same setup, 2* less timing and the only changes was the IC design (same physical size/dimensions) and a 3" exhaust elbow. HUGE difference in trq curve. this was a VERY nice setup and easily propelled the SVO to an 11.70 pass.

i used the same dyno for all my testing....... the graphs look different since one was a print out and the other was a file and i used a different viewer to look at it.

in the end, crank the boost up if you want , those spkies of TRQ though are killer on rods, the cylinder pressure is through the roof for such low rpm, thus breaking rods.

 

[gtlaw]

let see if i remember right 1 psi is = t0 11hp so if i were to not turn up the boost and did bolt ons
1 psi 11hp same as intake
2 psi 22hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe
3 psi 33hp same as intake, dp, mid pipe, manifold
4 psi 44hp or same as running 20 psi stock would be intake, dp, mid , manifold and intercooler. whitch is what i am running. stock psi dyno 292 no harm to the motor at all. other then running hella rich.

oh if it were only that simple

 

[justa4banger]

oh if it were only that simple

it is .............................isn't it???????????? (breakn)

 

[xboxlivemonkey]

I can tell that you had trouble enough forming a sentence, yet alone having it make sense BRO. The MS3 isn't the end all be all. They are decently good daily drivers, but you will never see people run crazy numbers on stock internals for long

ahHH, sorry , at the moment i was pissed becuase my knee is shot and hurts like hell, but tbh i still hate that phrase !!!!! , also i dont feel like the mzr can hold up to alot of abuse like there older counter parts ex. mazda mx3 engine was very strong ! (boobs2)

 

[sperry]

I second what justa4banger said. Peak power is useless. It's all about area under the curve. There's a reason 500 whp cars get beat by 400 whp cars, a 500 hp dyno queen is in fact slower than a car with a nice broad torque band, even if the peak hp os much lower.

And trying to equate 1psi to 11hp and adding up to determine "it's safe" is a great start to a blown motor. The reason Madza dials back the stock tuning is for a margin of safety and longevity. Sure the motor may hold together a 300hp but you may only get 20k miles out of it.

 

[MS3077]

I think sperry knows what he's talking about.

 

[sleeping_blue]

ok i will take the hit am wrong, and i admit i clearly do not fully understand everything there is to know about engine's and everything involved in them. what i am getting out of what is being said is any power added to the car is harmful and is going to decrease the motors life span. weathers its a bolt on or psi increase. if i am is that correct?

 

[clos561]

youll proly need to do map clamp if u want to run 19psi

 

[Darksun280]

nope

 

[justa4banger]

Most people aren't educated enough to run high boost and know what detonation(knock) is, or feel when the car isn't happy. yes with higher octane, i wouldn't be scared to run higher boost, But all your still doing is raising a power band up a little. theres still not alot of power under the curve.

Look at the current guys that have done turbo upgrades. Bigest number increases are the HP, trq numbers are up, but no where near as much, Also look at the dyno and notice that the trq CURVE is flater and smoother, this makes a car more drivable, faster, and more fun to drive.

Any MOD will reduce the lifespan of the engine..........known fact....... question is.........reduced by HOW MUCH? Driving habits differ, fuel quality differs, etc etc............there is too many variables. One guy in new york could have his car live on 20 psi for the life of the car, another guy in Cali could pop a motor in a month........

raise the boost if you want......... but if your s*** goes BOOM, don't cry wolf and expect mazda to fix it, you wanna play, you gotta PAY.

 

[justa4banger]

Oh and boost spikes are not a good thing, specifying spike or constant is dumb...... no one should ever want a SPIKE of anything....... its a good way to pop a HG or worse a piston/rod.

the turbo is small on the MS3 to limit the amount of LAG that is felt, not top end power. trq lower in the powerband makes the car feel better for city driving..........aka the normal user......

If i was to mod my MS3, the first mod (besides a CAI), would be the turbo and the exhuast after the turbo (DP). then of course all the things need to support the added air.no better way to jump from 240whp to 300+whp.

 

[Darksun280]

Oh and boost spikes are not a good thing, specifying spike or constant is dumb...... no one should ever want a SPIKE of anything....... its a good way to pop a HG or worse a piston/rod.

Um our turbos spike and fall. Its what they do. Someone spiking 20 and falling to 17 aint the same as some one spiking 24 and falling to 20 and yes on the same setup those two people are making different amounts of power.

 

[sperry]

Um our turbos spike and fall. Its what they do. Someone spiking 20 and falling to 17 aint the same as some one spiking 24 and falling to 20 and yes on the same setup those two people are making different amounts of power.

I don't think you know what a boost spike is. It's *bad*. You don't want it to happen, period.

I think what you're trying to talk about is call boost taper. The need to gradually drop off boost at high rpm. Something like 13psi@3000 rpm during spool up, 17psi@4500 tapering to 12psi at redline is normal for a turbo car. Something like 13psi@3000, then 22psi@3250, then back to 14.5psi@4000 is a spike and will ruin your motor while getting on the freeway some cool evening.

Without extensive mods and tuning (and a much bigger turbo), no one should be trying to hold 20psi to redline... way too much hot air coming off that small turbo at that sort of flow and boost.