SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
hey i was looking at some things the other day and seen a knock sensor and i was wondering how hard these are to install? ive never seen a how to or anything.
knock sensor
- Thread starter SeR_Cyclops
- Start date
what are you looking at?
you can get a knock light where it detects knock and blinks. you would have to install a knock sensor.
if you get the j and s safeguard, it detects knock and pulls timing by various amounts. you would also have to install a knock sensor.
FYI, the msp comes stock with a knock sensor.
To install the knock sensor for the j and s safeguard, it was no big deal at all. there is a threaded hole on the back of the block that i used to mount my sensor. basically the sensor slips over a stud and that stud is screwed into the block. the vibrations (knock) from the block go up through the stud and the sensor measures them.
you can get a knock light where it detects knock and blinks. you would have to install a knock sensor.
if you get the j and s safeguard, it detects knock and pulls timing by various amounts. you would also have to install a knock sensor.
FYI, the msp comes stock with a knock sensor.
To install the knock sensor for the j and s safeguard, it was no big deal at all. there is a threaded hole on the back of the block that i used to mount my sensor. basically the sensor slips over a stud and that stud is screwed into the block. the vibrations (knock) from the block go up through the stud and the sensor measures them.
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
well i had seen them on evos and other cars but never one a msp. then i seen a knock light and i was wondering how to hook it up. which one would you recommend i cant run the j and s safeguard cause i run a SS AFC and i have heard they are not compatible
im sorry but what have you seen? a knock sensor is just a sensor. like i said, we have one from the factory as well!
im not sure how to hook the knock light up, but im sure its pretty basic. you probably have to mount the knock sensor to the block and then run wires from the sensor to the unit.
are you sure you cannot run the j and s safeguard? i know that there are different ways that you can get the unit built so that you can run it. for example, i had made built so that i can run full standalone down the road if i want to. send a pm to turfburn, he will know for sure.
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
well i had seen the problems joeknox had with his. also if you dont mind me asking how much was your unit are they not expensive? here is a link to what i seen this is just some site i seen http://www.fastwrx.com/tuknli.html
i cant remember exactly but it was about 530 for the unit and about 50 for the gauge from steve.
so yea they do get pricey, but i think its great insurance for your engine. look at yashooa, he was running the piss out of his car on stock internals and im willing to bet the j and s helped him out quite a bit.
i read about him having problems with it but he is the only person that i have ever read anything about having issues. maybe the mechanic ****** some wirign up, i dont know. but if this is still in your price range or even if it isnt send steve a pm and see what he says about it.
i was looking into that knock light a longgg time ago. my dads friend at work is big into wrx's and he suggested that. i really liked the idea, but the only bad thing is all it is a warnign light (which is good and all), but i wanted something a little more preventative. so i got the j and s. plus i was planning to eventually get the j and s down the road so why waste 125 on that would it could go towards a knock sensor/timing retard on the fly unit (j and s)?
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
true but can you help me understand what the j and s does? maybe a link? does it retard timing as you are getting knock? or does it just say you are getting knock and better get off this s***? if you know what I'm saying....
oh yea for sure.
"does it just say you are getting knock and better get off this s***?"
----that is what the knock light u posted does.
the j and s detects knock and retards the timing in increments of 1 or 2 degrees of timing until there is no knock. and after it is gone it adds the timing back in. the unit does this per cylinder (or u can have it set to all cylinders) so that you dont lose a ton of power for knock in one cylinder and not another. there are also other features that you can have built in, like a o2 clamp, you can have it automatically pull a certain amount of timing in the peak torque rpm range, and you can also (which this would interest you) can have the unit retard a certain amount of timing per every pound of boost. basically it gives you timing control based on boost if you want it to.
i have timing control in my ems so i just run the knock detection where it retards timing 1 degree until the knock is gone.
im at school on my laptop but my home computer has tons of j and s links bookmarked. but its all good, just search and you will find some info.
there are a few good threads on here discussing it!
also here is the website,
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
sounds like a hell of a unit for the price.... what kind of power/boost can you push with this unit safely on stock rods and pistons?
EDIT* also how do you install the J and S and who tunes them cause i really have no msp owners or any good performance shop here close. i can do some things like install my AFC replace my LSD motor mounts and those things but i dont want to see how good i am at wiring if ya know what I'm saying lol.
EDIT* also how do you install the J and S and who tunes them cause i really have no msp owners or any good performance shop here close. i can do some things like install my AFC replace my LSD motor mounts and those things but i dont want to see how good i am at wiring if ya know what I'm saying lol.
Last edited:
well im not gonna throw a figure out for max hp on stock internals. the max amount of power is a function of how much stress the tiny rods can handle. you can have the SAFEST tune with every supporting mod possible, and you could still bend the rod. These rods werent designed to take ridiculous amounts of power. I do believe that alot of people blow up the car due to abuse or bad tunes. Meaning the j and s couldve probably saved alot of motors that popped due to knock and whatnot. The good thing about the j and s is that it is an insurance policy. Im putting in a forged engine with tons of mods and i like to know that even if something happens i have the j and s there to save my ass. Its also great on the car now without the built engine in. If the engine is gonna blow, i know its not because i was detonating nonstop.
Another feature i forgot about, is that you can have the unit only pull timing after a certain level of boost. So you can put the threshold at like 6 psi and everything below 6 psi it will ignore.
This is just a quick writeup of the install. The unit comes with instructions which i will scan in if you really want me to.
1) I tied into the fuel pump power feed (only supplies 12v when engine is cranked.)
2) Wire to ground.
3) Vacuum input from manifold.
4) Spliced j and s timing control wires between my MPI SMT6 and coil packs.
5) mounted sensor to block
6)ran the sensor wires from the unit to the sensor (it has harnesses so its pnp)
As for tuning, the directions give you steps to make sure it is working, like you tap on the sensor with a screw driver and the car should stumble pretty badly while sitting there and revving to 2000 rpm.
from the directions:
"Sensitivity adjust (tuning the unit): A common mistake is to set the sensitivity control to the max. This will usually cause the unit to overretard due to engine noise. We recommend setting it to the midrange and getting the car up to highway cruising speed. To ensure the unit is armed, set the rate knob fully CCW. at freeway cruising speed, increase the sensitivity until the unit just starts to retard due to engine noise. this is the easiest to do if you have purchased one of our knock retard monitors (i bought one steve made). if you dont have a monitor, the monitor LED on the front panel will glow dimly, increasing in brightness with increasing knock retard. In any case, give the unit only as much sensitivity as it takes to make the ping go away."
turfburn (steve) told me that on the proteges he typically puts teh sensitivity from either 12-3 oclock or 1-3 oclock i cant remember off the top of my head. but anyways, beign too sensitive cant hurt, it will jsut pull more timing. not being sensitive enough will almost be like not having the unit at all. so you just have to mess with it a little bit.
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
wow sounds like its not to hard to install ill have to look into getting one for sure cause you can never be too safe
yea like i said send turf an pm and see if it can work with your setup. its definitely worth getting!
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
im talking to someone righ now this unit is brand new and it comes with the led screen for 500 shipped
but im still looking for a answer on what kind of boost you can push with this thing safe? would it still be 10 psi? i know there are different oppions but what would you think would be a good number?
but im still looking for a answer on what kind of boost you can push with this thing safe? would it still be 10 psi? i know there are different oppions but what would you think would be a good number?
make sure the unit will work with your setup. they are not all the same. they can come configured differently from j and s.
i dont want to give a number and then you run it and blow your car up. i know yashooa ran 100k miles on high boost and finally messed his engine up. im running 12 and im a little nervous that the engine wont hold up (well i was running 12, i just pulled my engine to put the built block in).
its extremely difficult to give you a number because from all the blown motors on the forum, you dont know the causes. people abuse their cars. maybe they didnt abuse it and put in the wrong octane. people kill it in 5th gear boosting. there are sooo many variables.
with all the bolt ons, the j and s, and a good tune, i would say you could get by with 10psi. you just got to take care of the car.
you definitely definitely do not want to over rev the engine.
you want to limit the boost in 5th gear.
keep up with the oil changes.
just simple stuff.
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
i service my car on the T and so that would not be a problem i try real hard not to over rev but sometimes it happens when I'm not paying attention like bouncing off rev limiter but it does not happen offen i know what you are saying with all the variables, now I'm asking how hard they are to install could you scan the instructions for me? and BTW thanks alot for helping me out man it means alot
try very very very hard not to hit the rev limiter. over revving this engine does nothing but hurt it. also, when you are sitting there in neutral, it is not good to rev the car way up with no load on the engine.
here are the instructions:
Attachments
Okay I'll give you guys the story.
Everything was installed right, that was checked, and double checked and was not an issue.
The issue with running them both came at partial throttle ONLY. For some reason when applying partial throttle the car would buck and lean out. It wasn't fuel cut, because once I got on it the whole way it would run rich, and it only really happened when I was just cruising past 0 psi.
I think the car comes out of open loop and goes back to the factory ECU closed loop right at that point, but I dunno, we could never figure it out.
Also, when I ordered from Turfburn he let J&S know I would be running the Split Second, so John @ J&S set it up for that.
I am now running a Unichip and will be getting tuned in a few weeks since we couldn't get the AFC J&S thing figured out. The Unichip is awesome too. I think eventually I'll buy another J&S, but for now my car is as fast as I want, so I'm probably not going to run too much boost anyways, and just baby it for a while.
Now, as far as knock detectors go. You don't need a light, you can definitely hear engine knocking, and by the time that light flashes you've probably already heard it.
I just got my GF a 06' Suzuki Grand Vitara and it calls for just regular unleaded, but every time the variable intake runner (Suzuki's version of V-tack!) would kick in it would start knocking. It sounds like an exhaust shield rattling, rocks in a can, or metal rocks in your engine (think *tink tink tink*).
So we tried different brands of gas and different octane ratings, and the only thing that fixed it was going to premium. Took it to Suzuki and they told me try different brands, I told them I already did that, and they told me they didn't know what to do. WTF? So now I run premium only, and it hasn't knocked since, except when we get gas with a possible 10% ethanol mix.
Everything was installed right, that was checked, and double checked and was not an issue.
The issue with running them both came at partial throttle ONLY. For some reason when applying partial throttle the car would buck and lean out. It wasn't fuel cut, because once I got on it the whole way it would run rich, and it only really happened when I was just cruising past 0 psi.
I think the car comes out of open loop and goes back to the factory ECU closed loop right at that point, but I dunno, we could never figure it out.
Also, when I ordered from Turfburn he let J&S know I would be running the Split Second, so John @ J&S set it up for that.
I am now running a Unichip and will be getting tuned in a few weeks since we couldn't get the AFC J&S thing figured out. The Unichip is awesome too. I think eventually I'll buy another J&S, but for now my car is as fast as I want, so I'm probably not going to run too much boost anyways, and just baby it for a while.
Now, as far as knock detectors go. You don't need a light, you can definitely hear engine knocking, and by the time that light flashes you've probably already heard it.
I just got my GF a 06' Suzuki Grand Vitara and it calls for just regular unleaded, but every time the variable intake runner (Suzuki's version of V-tack!) would kick in it would start knocking. It sounds like an exhaust shield rattling, rocks in a can, or metal rocks in your engine (think *tink tink tink*).
So we tried different brands of gas and different octane ratings, and the only thing that fixed it was going to premium. Took it to Suzuki and they told me try different brands, I told them I already did that, and they told me they didn't know what to do. WTF? So now I run premium only, and it hasn't knocked since, except when we get gas with a possible 10% ethanol mix.
Last edited:
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
wow so Joe do you think i would be able to run this safeguard with my V1 afc?
SeR_Cyclops
Member
- :
- Mazdaspeed Protege
thanks for the instructions man!
I really don't know.
People here claim it should be possible, but I believe I'm the only one to try it, so take that FWIW.
Myself, and now two reputable shops (my new shop had a show on DIY network) have tried to fix it to no avail. I think the problem is the fuel map loops changing over right at that 0 psi mark....
....but hell what do I know?
Last edited:
