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gt3076r runing as of 9-28-07
- Thread starter MS6mike
- Start date
All signs of failure are pointing to the darn mechanical fuel pump. It looks like the stock one runs out of flow at the upper RPM's (possibly why the throttle plate is closed at those RPM's by the stock ECU.)
The upgraded pumps now coming into the market are showing signs of letting even the stock ECU keep the throttle open, with everything else being stock. Imagine if you were showing good AFR's (if not quite a bit rich), but suddenly the stock mech. pump ran out of juice, and the change was nearly instant compared to the demands of 18psi+ at high RPM. If this "perfect storm of leanness" came about, I'd certainly see your engine having trouble. It is possible that the AFR's showed good, but in a near instant you went full lean due to the pump running out of flow.
Obviously I'm unable to prove this at the time, but I think this is out Achilles heel. If it is, then great improvement in durability and performance could be achieved just from a simple bolt-on swap of the pump. Time will tell if I'm right, but I have a strong hunch that this is some of the cause. After all, it is one of the best known bottlenecks of the MZR DISI 2.3 engine.
Thoughts?
It's certainly possible.
- :
- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
here is a little lesson with how the "boost cut defender" works on this car for those who are uninitiated. the boost cut defender bleeds off any boost above certain point so that the MAP sensor cannot read anything beyond that point. the MAP sensor, among other things, is responsible for telling the ECU how much positive pressure is in the intake manifold. this allows the ECU not only to trigger a fuel cut (hence the stutter or brick wall feeling some of you get) when it sees over boost, but also determines the proper fuel mix, the proper amount of timing pull and potentially the amount of throttle plate closure.
so lets say that you are 15psi. the computer will see 15 psi and add X fuel and pull Y timing. if you are at 16, 17, 18, etc psi, the computer will still see only 15psi and still only add X fuel and Y timing. the problem with this is obvious. the more boost you run, the more fuel you need and more timing pulled to maintain not only a safe AFR, but prevent detonation and generally keep a safe engine operating condition.
so yes, the "boost cut defender" does allow you to trick the computer so you can run more boost, but it also prevents the stock computer from really doing its job. the car does not tune by MAF sensor alone.
i don't know if volumetric efficiency has even been discussed in this thread, but it should be. 15psi on a K04/22 is not the same as 15psi on a GT30anything, 71 or 76. Its like saying a straw pushing X psi of water is the same as a sewer pipe pushing X psi of water. Bigger turbos push more air, period. Its - no offense - stupid to say "well the turbo came at the set wastegate pressure of 15psi and i have a boost cut defender and my AFR is nice and rich" and use that as a blank check to think your car is safe. its not that simple folks. there is cheap speed and reliable speed. there is no such thing as cheap and reliable speed. if you shove more air, more VOLUME of air mind you, it will put more of a strain on the engine. it does not matter if you run the same PSI as before. it does not matter that your air fuel ratio is perfect. these engines, as i have been saying all along, are really not that strong.
so lets also address the people who just push more boost from the stock turbo. that too is not such a great idea. someone ripped me a while back for saying the turbo is already close to or is maxed out in terms of efficiency. his counter argument was "well i made more power by running more boost so you are wrong." just because you are making more power does not mean you are in the efficiency range of the turbo. and the worst part about that is that you are now forcing hotter air into the engine. hotter combustion temps, hotter intake charge do not mean good things for the life of the turbo or the engine.
so lets say that you are 15psi. the computer will see 15 psi and add X fuel and pull Y timing. if you are at 16, 17, 18, etc psi, the computer will still see only 15psi and still only add X fuel and Y timing. the problem with this is obvious. the more boost you run, the more fuel you need and more timing pulled to maintain not only a safe AFR, but prevent detonation and generally keep a safe engine operating condition.
so yes, the "boost cut defender" does allow you to trick the computer so you can run more boost, but it also prevents the stock computer from really doing its job. the car does not tune by MAF sensor alone.
i don't know if volumetric efficiency has even been discussed in this thread, but it should be. 15psi on a K04/22 is not the same as 15psi on a GT30anything, 71 or 76. Its like saying a straw pushing X psi of water is the same as a sewer pipe pushing X psi of water. Bigger turbos push more air, period. Its - no offense - stupid to say "well the turbo came at the set wastegate pressure of 15psi and i have a boost cut defender and my AFR is nice and rich" and use that as a blank check to think your car is safe. its not that simple folks. there is cheap speed and reliable speed. there is no such thing as cheap and reliable speed. if you shove more air, more VOLUME of air mind you, it will put more of a strain on the engine. it does not matter if you run the same PSI as before. it does not matter that your air fuel ratio is perfect. these engines, as i have been saying all along, are really not that strong.
so lets also address the people who just push more boost from the stock turbo. that too is not such a great idea. someone ripped me a while back for saying the turbo is already close to or is maxed out in terms of efficiency. his counter argument was "well i made more power by running more boost so you are wrong." just because you are making more power does not mean you are in the efficiency range of the turbo. and the worst part about that is that you are now forcing hotter air into the engine. hotter combustion temps, hotter intake charge do not mean good things for the life of the turbo or the engine.
here is a little lesson with how the "boost cut defender" works on this car for those who are uninitiated. the boost cut defender bleeds off any boost above certain point so that the MAP sensor cannot read anything beyond that point. the MAP sensor, among other things, is responsible for telling the ECU how much positive pressure is in the intake manifold. this allows the ECU not only to trigger a fuel cut (hence the stutter or brick wall feeling some of you get) when it sees over boost, but also determines the proper fuel mix, the proper amount of timing pull and potentially the amount of throttle plate closure.
so lets say that you are 15psi. the computer will see 15 psi and add X fuel and pull Y timing. if you are at 16, 17, 18, etc psi, the computer will still see only 15psi and still only add X fuel and Y timing. the problem with this is obvious. the more boost you run, the more fuel you need and more timing pulled to maintain not only a safe AFR, but prevent detonation and generally keep a safe engine operating condition.
so yes, the "boost cut defender" does allow you to trick the computer so you can run more boost, but it also prevents the stock computer from really doing its job. the car does not tune by MAF sensor alone.
i don't know if volumetric efficiency has even been discussed in this thread, but it should be. 15psi on a K04/22 is not the same as 15psi on a GT30anything, 71 or 76. Its like saying a straw pushing X psi of water is the same as a sewer pipe pushing X psi of water. Bigger turbos push more air, period. Its - no offense - stupid to say "well the turbo came at the set wastegate pressure of 15psi and i have a boost cut defender and my AFR is nice and rich" and use that as a blank check to think your car is safe. its not that simple folks. there is cheap speed and reliable speed. there is no such thing as cheap and reliable speed. if you shove more air, more VOLUME of air mind you, it will put more of a strain on the engine. it does not matter if you run the same PSI as before. it does not matter that your air fuel ratio is perfect. these engines, as i have been saying all along, are really not that strong.
so lets also address the people who just push more boost from the stock turbo. that too is not such a great idea. someone ripped me a while back for saying the turbo is already close to or is maxed out in terms of efficiency. his counter argument was "well i made more power by running more boost so you are wrong." just because you are making more power does not mean you are in the efficiency range of the turbo. and the worst part about that is that you are now forcing hotter air into the engine. hotter combustion temps, hotter intake charge do not mean good things for the life of the turbo or the engine.
yes, thats why i say now STOCK FTW!!!!!!!(first)
jcgemt2003
Member
- :
- 06 speed6
yes, thats why i say now STOCK FTW!!!!!!!(first)
You crack me up mike (hah)
You crack me up mike (hah)
well mai am not as lucky as you. i dont have ken as my sponsor. before i get broke i will stop now. If i get sponsor like you then i will go back to tunning.
jcgemt2003
Member
- :
- 06 speed6
well mai am not as lucky as you. i dont have ken as my sponsor. before i get broke i will stop now. If i get sponsor like you then i will go back to tunning.
I pay for parts just like everyone else my friend....just not as much....(sssh)
I pay for parts just like everyone else my friend....just not as much....(sssh)
(poke) yea money its not te issue. the issue is of you knowing ken will take care of you and know what he is doing!
- :
- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
(poke) yea money its not te issue. the issue is of you knowing ken will take care of you and know what he is doing!
hey man, you know i would take care of you if you gave the word.
jcgemt2003
Member
- :
- 06 speed6
damm wish you were local
Its only like what a 14hr drive up here....come on you can do it!
forrestang
Member
I want another engine now!!!!
- :
- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
damm wish you were local
freight train the car here, we're right on the tracks
chriscecc914
Member
- :
- 06 MS6
does PG have a scheduled dyno day and cruise for next year? I wouldnt mind taking the trip out 13.5 hours if i knew when it was.
- :
- 2002 BJFW, 2007 BK3P, 1979 SA22C, 2005 BK3P
we need a dyno before we can have a dyno day haha. but we can team up with another shop in the area for something like this.
jcgemt2003
Member
- :
- 06 speed6
Mike I ran a 12.84 @ 105mph today.....There will be a thread with more info soon....I ran 12.8,12.9,and 13.0.......I used to run 13.1-13.3
jcgemt2003
Member
- :
- 06 speed6
i step down to give you the fastest ms6 title good job man!
Thank you sir....Beat by a 100th of a second....(hand)
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