I'm Back...

[Keith@FP]

Sorry, we don't have knock monitors at the moment. Link introduced a really good one at SEMA, but I don't know if we'll be carrying it. Perhaps Terry can hook you up with one or suggest a good supplier.

Keith

 

[1sty]

The knock sensor doesn't go dead when car goes open or closed loop or any crap like that does it?

 

[Keith@FP]

No, I believe the factory knock sensor is always active. Any knock monitor you buy would likely be completely independent of the factory system anyhow. It's basically just a microphone with a display. The intelligent ones can compensate for the rising engine noise as revs rise.

Keith

 

[70]

Stutter,
I read the MSP was 5.9 PSI and figured it must be that low to only get 170 crank HP. Running 9 PSI should have broke 200hp at crank if not 220hp. Isn't that more then the Neon is running and its claiming 220 atleast I thought.

It was supposed to be set at 6.9 psi. I thought that until I got the Edwin smack on the other board. He is saying that it is running 9 spi.

It could very well be at 200 at the crank. Remember the tranny on the Protege/MP3 loses about 20%. The MSP is running the same tranny plus LSD, so figure maybe a little more loss.

I think Mazda is pulling a VW move here. SCC put down 150 something to the ground, right?? I seriously doubt that Mazda figured out how to get down to ~9% loss in that tranny by adding LSD...

If SCC got 155, that would put the tranny at 23% loss with a 200 at the crank. That sounds reasonable to me. I am trying to get clarification on the matter.

 

[spoolinmp3]

Yeah I am pretty sure that the MSP is running 5.9 psi. I dont want to sound ignorant saying this, there is a lot of questionable info flying around on the other boards. I recently went to the autoshow and asked the dude how much boost the MSP was running and he gave me a text book reply of 5.9psi but hell he could have been wrong as well. As for knock sensors I can find out but I currently do not carry any as well. To be honest with you I have never dealt with them. You may want to try J&S as another saftey option. I know that big_ben has or had one of these.

 

[1sty]

I would rather stick to devices that actualy work considering bens engine is a multant 400 pound paper weight at this point.

If our cars already have a knock sensor then we already have a devices actively monitoring knock and it doesn't have to depend on sound. I assume like most sensrs the knockwill be an AC voltage. If this is so why not just splice in an AC voltage meter to watch for knock. Possibly one with memory to see how bad the car knocked.

Is this a possible or even reliable way to monitor knock?

 

[big_ben]

As for the info that Edwin has vomited out, it is completely wrong. It's also absurd to think that a 9.1:1 compression ratio motor that is being boosted to 9psi will only produce 170hp. Come on, think about that. Terry is producing over 200hp at the wheels at only 7psi. So the 9psi info he spouted off is completly wrong and completely stupid. It just shows the dumb incompetance of some of the mods on that site.

 

[1sty]

As for the info that Edwin has vomited out, it is completely wrong. It's also absurd to think that a 9.1:1 compression ratio motor that is being boosted to 9psi will only produce 170hp. Come on, think about that. Terry is producing over 200hp at the wheels at only 7psi. So the 9psi info he spouted off is completly wrong and completely stupid. It just shows the dumb incompetance of some of the mods on that site.

TAKE THAT!
(nuts)

 

[70]

As for the info that Edwin has vomited out, it is completely wrong. It's also absurd to think that a 9.1:1 compression ratio motor that is being boosted to 9psi will only produce 170hp. Come on, think about that. Terry is producing over 200hp at the wheels at only 7psi. So the 9psi info he spouted off is completly wrong and completely stupid. It just shows the dumb incompetance of some of the mods on that site.

Yes, I forgot, you know everything about this Ben...You've seen the tech manuals?? You have source in Mazda that give you everything about the car??

The motor can handle 9 psi. It isn't weak. And I think the math I showed above proves that Edwin could be right. No one said manufacturers give out accurate SAE net horsepower ratings. Look at VW. I doubt they can get ~10% drivetrain loss out of their tranny's...And neither can Mazda, particularly when the tranny hasn't received any development since it was made! Seriously people think!

Don't attack someones credibility simply becuase you have some sort of grudge with them. Have you put together the Protege FAQ Ben?? Do you know everything about the car?

 

[big_ben]

Yes, I forgot, you know everything about this Ben...You've seen the tech manuals?? You have source in Mazda that give you everything about the car??

The motor can handle 9 psi. It isn't weak. And I think the math I showed above proves that Edwin could be right. No one said manufacturers give out accurate SAE net horsepower ratings. Look at VW. I doubt they can get ~10% drivetrain loss out of their tranny's...And neither can Mazda, particularly when the tranny hasn't received any development since it was made! Seriously people think!

Don't attack someones credibility simply becuase you have some sort of grudge with them. Have you put together the Protege FAQ Ben?? Do you know everything about the car?

Man, I'm just being realistic. I don't have to look at the tech manuals to see that that is absurd to say that the MSP is running 9psi. Don't be blinded by one person saying it is 9psi. Have you seen the tech manuals? I also never said the motor can't handle 9psi, it can handle around 12 reliably for short periods with the right timing retard. That's not the issue.

Another question. Why do you think a manufacturer would under-rate the cars horse power? In the sport compact market, sales live and die by the amount of hp they put out. This isn't like Ford under-rating the Cobra SVT. They did that so they would get less flack from the insurance boards. BUT, the Cobra SVT is putting down over 300hp. That's a big number. Do you really think that Mazda would want to undercut a real rating of lets say 200hp down to 170 hp. If you say yes, please answer me why? That's only 30hp, that's not that much. I'm not trying to attack you, I just think that the info you got from Edwin is wrong. I just want you to look at what you are saying. It doesn't make sense.

 

[70]

Why does VW underrate their motors?? Insurance purposes. They don't want it to be rated higher than the up coming sports car, the RX-8. Do I need to name more reasons?

Here is the thread on the other board: http://www.protegeclub.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12875&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Look on page three, towards the bottom. This whole thread is in regards to the dealership presentation of the MSP. As you can see (starting form the beginning), they originally thought 6.9 psi as well, but it was confirmed that the car will be running 9 psi from the get go.

The motor can handle 10 psi reliably, 12 will blow the block. This has been proven by Keith in talks with Mazda, as well by the Mazda reps.

I realize that it might sound absurd for them to run 9psi. But the numbers SCC to got would show that 6.9 is not what is going on. Once again I point to the lack of volumetric efficiency of FACTORY turbo kits. It's not there for a reason, cost effective reasons. Hence, why the car needs to run 9 to get the numbers that SCC got.

I'm trying to see if I can get scans of the info regarding the 9psi. Until then, I'm not going to argue any more about. Believe what you want. I trust the sources Edwin has. THEY WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN ITS IMPLEMANTATION AND DESIGN, AND WORK FOR MAZDA NA...

Here is more info:http://web2.airmail.net/emann/streetheat.html

 

[1sty]

Avtualy you may want to check with FM on that one. Occording to them 10 PSI will blow the block. 8 is the upper limit of the motor.

 

[70]

Avtualy you may want to check with FM on that one. Occording to them 10 PSI will blow the block. 8 is the upper limit of the motor.

This discussion went rounds on the other board as well. Keith was the one saying 10 is relaible with proper fuel and timing. Twelve will blow the motor.

Not talking about it anymore until I can get better proof, since everything else isn't working and people seem to have this serious grudge with the other board.

 

[big_ben]

Damn, I read some of those posts and there is some real anger in those people's lives. Anyway, like I said, I'm not attacking you, I just don't believe that the turbo is set to 9psi. And I won't believe it until someone has one and they put a boost gauge on it. Several articles have said that it's at 5.9psi, including one from Callaway I think. So until it is proven, I don't believe the 9psi thing.

 

[70]

Damn, I read some of those posts and there is some real anger in those people's lives. Anyway, like I said, I'm not attacking you, I just don't believe that the turbo is set to 9psi. And I won't believe it until someone has one and they put a boost gauge on it. Several articles have said that it's at 5.9psi, including one from Callaway I think. So until it is proven, I don't believe the 9psi thing.

I know what you are saying. I thought it was crazy too. But not unreasonable.

And don't go around saying the 5.9 number in that other thread about this, they'll go ballistic because "Car and Driver" (aka GOD) says 6.9...And Calloway couldn't design an ineffiecient turbo kit, despite the way the intercooler is set up.

 

[big_ben]

Look people, I know for a fact that 12psi will NOT blow the motor as long as the timing is retarded way back. If you do not believe me, ask Terry, he did a dyno run at 12psi. I am not just pulling this out of my ass. Now, if you run 12psi everyday, yes, you will blow the motor even with retarded timing. Terry has even overboosted to over 15psi, his motor is still fine. How do you explain that?

 

[70]

Look people, I know for a fact that 12psi will NOT blow the motor as long as the timing is retarded way back. If you do not believe me, ask Terry, he did a dyno run at 12psi. I am not just pulling this out of my ass. Now, if you run 12psi everyday, yes, you will blow the motor even with retarded timing. Terry has even overboosted to over 15psi, his motor is still fine. How do you explain that?

I say he has proved Mazda wrong then...Good job Terry!

 

[1sty]

I had been keeping up for some time on the MSP. Originaly the plan was 7 PSI or 6.9. All of the initial tests were doen on these cars. However they proved on reliable and the later beta testers were tweaked down to 5.9. This is when SCC got theres to play with.

 

[LinuxRacr]

...Terry has even overboosted to over 15psi, his motor is still fine. How do you explain that?

Magic!!!

 

[big_ben]

I'll admit, it's not unreasonable considering that the T28 is inefficient, and the intercooler they use is also inefficient. And in turbo systems, efficiency is the key to lots of power at low, cooler boost. So, no, 9psi isn't unreasonable. But, I have read several different places thet the turbo is set at 5.9psi or whatever, so until some proves it wrong, which they haven't yet, that's what I'll believe.