Your thoughts on the MS3 engine?

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Haha sorry guys.. I wasn't trying to start a fight here. I was just wondering what your take on that was, and if there was any validity in some of the statements.. such as only making 60 lbs of torque at redline.

There is no need to bash the SI though.. different strokes for different folks. Some guys like the power up high, and apparently you guys like it right in the middle, which is what I would prefer as well.

I'm curious though, does chipping the MS3 yield any positive results in making more power up top? It would be nice to be making near-peak power all the way to redline instead of dieing off before it.


alot of things could fix the power up top. but understand that at some point in ANY engine, it is eventually going to stop making power. I put on a cai and noticed more power in the top end, an exhaust, downpipe, intercooler, tuning
and probably a hundred other thing will improve it. Again its pretty simple, I will take 280ft.lb of torque and 263hp in the middle of the power band over alot less power at the top of the power band like the si has
 
You can not compare an SI to a MS3 considering the power straight from the factory. Not to mention we have a TURBO. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

How can you not compare the Si and MS3?.. They're in the same division of sports compact.

In fact, minus the turbo (which granted is a big thing) we're talking about very similar cars. Both relatively small, well-handeling cars with some pep. Unfortunately the MS3 just has a bit more pep and a whole ton more torque.

To be honest, if VTEC in the SI just engaged at 3k RPMs, I would be completely satisfied with the car. It just sucks if I like.. floor it from a stop, I would be dead even with a regular civic DX for 5 seconds before anything happened.
 
The torque you donut is available all the way from 2000rpm and the engine happens to be the most advanced of its kind with DI Turbo.There is a sophisticated engine management and torque managemnet to prevent too much power in 1st and 2nd gears,limited slip and DSC.For 23k they are not going to shove a Garret GT31 and a front mount intercooler are they?:-)
Aslo you can`t compare naturally aspirated engines with FI engines.
 
One of the reason the ms3 loose power at the top end, is because the ecu close the throttle plate almost 50%. Cpe and xede(i think) are trying to find a solution for this problem. I really hope they can pull it off, in our life time anyway.
 
How can you not compare the Si and MS3?.. They're in the same division of sports compact.

In fact, minus the turbo (which granted is a big thing) we're talking about very similar cars. Both relatively small, well-handeling cars with some pep. Unfortunately the MS3 just has a bit more pep and a whole ton more torque.

To be honest, if VTEC in the SI just engaged at 3k RPMs, I would be completely satisfied with the car. It just sucks if I like.. floor it from a stop, I would be dead even with a regular civic DX for 5 seconds before anything happened.

From what I remember, the VTEC technology can be manipulated to open at different times, with a certain VTEC controller. I want to say that Apex'i sells one, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. This should work for you, too.

With regard to VTEC, I had it on my 06 Honda VFR bike, and I didn't like it. It was a "dumb" VTEC, which engaged at 6800 rpm if I recall. It messed up the balance of the bike!
 
They're in the same division of sports compact.

Correct and thanks for saying that.

Just so happens that IMO Mazda comes out top on this one, hopefully it will inspire Honda to raise the bar like i know they can, which is better for the consumer.

All the talk about power only being available from 25k to 55k is ok with me, like you said somewhere why wait 4 or 5 seconds to get your power. I looked at the Si and was impressed but thought with the MS3 you get more for your money and 11 months later i still think i made the right decision.

Those comparing the MS3 with the STI and EVO are way off, again IMO, (another thread i know) maybe but only just could compare with WRX wagon but the AWD ought to separate these cars into different categories.



Just my $.02
 
People seem to skip over the whole idea of balance. Ever wonder why the Miata sells so well? Too much engine and not enough handling/braking makes a car a handful in spirited driving. Too much chassis/suspension and a boring motor is probably just that, boring.

Exactly! My Club Sport has 120 fewer horses -and 600 fewer pounds- then my MS3, but it is just as much fun to drive. Unlike the MS3, the key to rapid progress is conservation of momentum and keeping the NA 1.8 liter wound above 3500 rpm. Which car is better? Who cares? Either one is a blast to drive...
 
From what I remember, the VTEC technology can be manipulated to open at different times, with a certain VTEC controller. I want to say that Apex'i sells one, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. This should work for you, too.

The Apex'i VAFC vtec controller sucks.. Some guy tried getting his turbo'd SI tuned with it and the engine block cracked. No one has had any success with it on the new SIs.. but then again, Hondata (a huge tuning company for the hondas) can't even crack the new SI's..

And you're right, VTEC does screw up the balance of even a car. It's annoying having a slow car one sec, and then a mildly quick car the next second. And I hate how Honda dips the power right before Vtec just so you feel it.
 
From what I remember, the VTEC technology can be manipulated to open at different times, with a certain VTEC controller.

Just because you can adjust the engagement point, doesn't mean you should. The air/fuel is adjuste for the cam switchover at a certain point. If you deviate from that too much, you can actually harm the engine, both in terms of performance and physical strength. So, unless you are going to remap all your settings, it's not wise to alter it more than a few hundred RPM's.



The Apex'i VAFC vtec controller sucks.. Some guy tried getting his turbo'd SI tuned with it and the engine block cracked. No one has had any success with it on the new SIs.. but then again, Hondata (a huge tuning company for the hondas) can't even crack the new SI's..

And you're right, VTEC does screw up the balance of even a car. It's annoying having a slow car one sec, and then a mildly quick car the next second. And I hate how Honda dips the power right before Vtec just so you feel it.

Just because "some guy" ruined his s***, doesn't mean it's solely because of the VAFC. You can do a mild "safe tune" with a VAFC, if done by a professional. However, if you don't know what you're doing, or if you're trying to squeeze every last possible ounce of power out of a modified engine, you should A) Get at least a piggyback, if not a full standalone...and B) Have it professionally tuned.

Hondata hasn't done crap for the F-Series motor either, but that doesn't mean there aren't any viable tuning solutions for it. It just means one company hasn't devoted enough time for it.

Also, Honda doesn't dip the power right before VTEC engagement. It's a side effect of the cam switchover. Nearly any and all engines with some sort of variable valve timing system does the same thing.

P.S. Have a good day. Keep that chin up. I really don't mind if you don't believe me, or are too stubborn to admit when you are wrong. You'll learn one day the meaning of the word humility. It's not the end of the world, I promise. But until then, keep your enthusiasm about cars. It's great that you show so much interest and devotion, it really is. You're just simply a little misguided. We were all there one day.
 
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Just because "some guy" ruined his s***, doesn't mean it's solely because of the VAFC. You can do a mild "safe tune" with a VAFC, if done by a professional. However, if you don't know what you're doing, or if you're trying to squeeze every last possible ounce of power out of a modified engine, you should A) Get at least a piggyback, if not a full standalone...and B) Have it professionally tuned.


Also, Honda doesn't dip the power right before VTEC engagement. It's a side effect of the cam switchover. Nearly any and all engines with some sort of variable valve timing system does the same thing.

I'm going to try and be as little of an asshole as possible in this post, but coming from me, who spends 99% of his internet time looking at HONDA stuff while you primarily know your mazda s***, I'm going to assume I know more about the new SI's than you do.

It wasn't just 'some guy' who cracked the block on his SI. It was a shop building up a turbo'd Si sedan. It was running well on a Hondata reflash until they tried doing their own tuning w/ the VAFC and it just isn't good software. Go on 8thcivic.com and ask them, it does NOT work on the 06+ SI's. Don't try telling me it does because it doesn't, there is nothing in between. It's a flat no.

And yes, honda DOES dip the power right before vtec. It's speculation that this is done to make VTEC more noticeable, but it's there none-the-less. Go read through hondata's note on the k20z3 (06+ SI engine) about what their reflash does. One of them is smoothing out the power and removing the power lost right before vtec. Therefore the engagement is less noticeable even though it gains nearly 25 HP midrange. If hondata can remove it, why couldn't honda? Hrm...
 
Kid, check my signature. I own, drive, autocross, and road race a Honda. I've worked on Hondas ranging from late 70's CVCC and early 80's carbed CRX's, all the way to newer Elements and Ridgelines....and plenty of Hondas in between. I've spent the last year campaigning this S2000 around various tracks in the southeast, and have done some driving demonstrations, and even instruction using other cars (including Hondas). So, before you claim I don't know my s***, do half an ounce of research.

Why would a reputable shop try and do build a turbo car, then tune it with a VAFC? That isn't reputable at all. That's stupid and taking the cheap way out, which leads me to believe they took the cheap way out on other things to. No surprise the s*** broke. I've seen bad shops break cars running on full standalones also, however, I don't really see that many GOOD shops relying on a VAFC for proper tuning.

Hondata doesn't remove the dip before VTEC engagement. They smooth it slightly. That means the air/fuel is programmed specifically for that RPM range to reduce the effects of the cam switchover. They aren't removing it, just hiding it.

Thanks, but try again.
 
It's just another kid begging for attention because mommy and daddy bought him a car that he doesn't want. So he's going to stick it to them by trading it in.

He came on here for opinions, and since he isn't getting the ones he wants to hear, he's going to have a tantrum. It's sad how many times we've had to see this exact scenario play out over and over on this forum.
 
your friend is forgetting the best part of the ms3 motor, DISI.

The MS3 motor also has stronger internals compared to the normal 2.3.

As others said it only feels weak at redline due to mazdas throttle controlling ECU. Get the throttle open 100% and there is lots of free power at redline.

I dont know anyone that would want a SI over a mazdaspeed3. Take them both to a track (anykind) and at the end of the day you will see what I mean.
 
Why would a reputable shop try and do build a turbo car, then tune it with a VAFC? That isn't reputable at all. That's stupid and taking the cheap way out, which leads me to believe they took the cheap way out on other things to. No surprise the s*** broke. I've seen bad shops break cars running on full standalones also, however, I don't really see that many GOOD shops relying on a VAFC for proper tuning.

Hondata doesn't remove the dip before VTEC engagement. They smooth it slightly. That means the air/fuel is programmed specifically for that RPM range to reduce the effects of the cam switchover. They aren't removing it, just hiding it.

Thanks, but try again.

Once again you're showing your ignorance on the 06+ SI. Stop because all your doing is speaking on what you know nothing of.

You think this new civic is tuneable with Kpro and whatnot just like the RSX-S and past civics. IT'S NOT. There is NO tuning (other than Greddy emanage right now). WTF else was the shop going to use to tune besides the Apex'i VAFC? Please, tell me since you seem so knowledgeable. There was ZERO tuning available at that time, now we have the piggy-back emanage system from Greddy. Please, speak what you know of, and nothing else.

Now I'd like an explanation on how Hondata doesn't "remove the VTEC dip but hides it". That makes NO sense. What they did was exactly what I said they did and what you contested me on - they smoothed it out (exactly how you put it) instead of letting the power drop down like honda did. Once again.. are you dumb, do you not know how to read, or do you just like arguing? All you did was restate exactly what I said (they removed the power loss before VTEC, which you argued against and then restated a minute later).

It's just another kid begging for attention because mommy and daddy bought him a car that he doesn't want. So he's going to stick it to them by trading it in.

He came on here for opinions, and since he isn't getting the ones he wants to hear, he's going to have a tantrum. It's sad how many times we've had to see this exact scenario play out over and over on this forum.

Again, are you retarded or do you just like to argue/make up dumb s*** to cause crap? I am paying for the Si in full. There is no money coming from my parents. I'm not getting the opinions that I want? Please, if you think ANYTHING you have to say regarding cars would influence me on any choice I make in life, you flatter yourself. I've read nothing but garbage from you so far.
 
I dont know anyone that would want a SI over a mazdaspeed3. Take them both to a track (anykind) and at the end of the day you will see what I mean.

I think a lot of people that are more serious into dumping money into their car for a real beat will take the SI over the MS3 due to the fact that the civic has and always will have the larger tuning crowd and available aftermarket. The SI makes incredible power, it just needs some money.

But when you're like me and you just want to buy the car and buy nothing else... the MS3 makes more sense.
 
Once again you're showing your ignorance on the 06+ SI. Stop because all your doing is speaking on what you know nothing of.

You think this new civic is tuneable with Kpro and whatnot just like the RSX-S and past civics. IT'S NOT. There is NO tuning (other than Greddy emanage right now). WTF else was the shop going to use to tune besides the Apex'i VAFC? Please, tell me since you seem so knowledgeable. There was ZERO tuning available at that time, now we have the piggy-back emanage system from Greddy. Please, speak what you know of, and nothing else.

AEM EMS? A real shop that actually tunes cars would use a real management system to tune a car, and not rely on something like a VAFC, like I've been saying. And the Greddy unit isn't all that swell either, but I'm sure you knew that from all your vast knowledge of Hondas.

Now I'd like an explanation on how Hondata doesn't "remove the VTEC dip but hides it". That makes NO sense. What they did was exactly what I said they did and what you contested me on - they smoothed it out (exactly how you put it) instead of letting the power drop down like honda did. Once again.. are you dumb, do you not know how to read, or do you just like arguing? All you did was restate exactly what I said (they removed the power loss before VTEC, which you argued against and then restated a minute later).

Very easily. They do the same thing that companies like TME and iPd do. They smooth it out to get the most driveable result while still increasing performance. If you look at TME reflashes on European cars, they generally do not make the most power compared to some of their competitors, yet they are still favored. Why? Because they have the smoothest power delivery. There aren't any sharp bumps from something like the engagement of a variable valve timing system. Hondata, had they gone strictly from the highest HP number, would still show a hump in power during VTEC engagement.


Again, are you retarded or do you just like to argue/make up dumb s*** to cause crap? I am paying for the Si in full. There is no money coming from my parents. I'm not getting the opinions that I want? Please, if you think ANYTHING you have to say regarding cars would influence me on any choice I make in life, you flatter yourself. I've read nothing but garbage from you so far.

Nope, not retarded. And I'm not resorting to childish insults to get my point across. It would be swell if you could do the same. Your parents ARE helping you. As you said, they bought the car, and you are paying them, so you can save money on interest. Little do you know, that this doesn't help you at all. You are not building any credit. So when you do decide to go buy a car yourself, you're going to have a tougher time getting financing unless you can drop some serious cash down.

I really don't mind if you say you don't listen to me. But you've degraded yourself into petty insults, so you obviously have listened enough to get all upset about it. That's satisfaction enough for me. You say it's nothing but garbage, yet you still repeatedly try and come back with random tidbits of "information" to try and convince me you know what you're talking about.

Board didn't take my last edit for some reason. But anyway, you seem like a decent kid. You're devoted and enthusiastic about cars, which is great. You just have to learn a little humility and understand you can't always be right. So, until then, keep your chin up. Just be careful who you attack. You never do know when you might run into someone who truly knows more than you do. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about cars. There's lots I don't know. And if I don't know something on here, I keep my mouth shut. So have a good day anyway, even if you think I'm retarded for some reason. :)
 
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