Why does the P5 handle so well?

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2002 Mazda Protege5
I just finished a 1000-mile, week-long road trip in the P5, including a couple of the better driving roads in the Pacific Northwest (the North Cascades Highway and part of BC's Crowsnest). My 5-speed P5 struggled on the uphills (no surprise), but handled like a dream on the twisty sections, often catching up to cars that had easily outpaced it on the straights. And it made me wonder: What did Mazda do right with the P5, technically speaking, and why isn't this kind of handling more widespread in mass-market vehicles? The P5 is a ten year-old econowagon, so it can't be beyond the capabilities of other manufacturers.

I haven't driven many other Mazdas, so I can't compare the P5 to (say) the MX-5 or the 3, and I have pretty much zero experience driving high-end cars, but I've driven Nissans, Fords, Chevys, Hyundais, Toyotas, Chryslers, etc., many of them rentals, and I can't think of a car I've driven that has such a pleasing, razor-sharp, well-weighted steering response as the P5. So what's behind the magic? I know the four-wheel independent suspension with the front strut tower brace helps keep her flat and poised in the corners, but the steering is more of a mystery to me.

And as a related question: I'm planning to downsize from the family minivan (98 Nissan Quest) into a used midsize sedan or wagon sometime over the next year or so. What are the P5's fun-to-drive equivalents in the midsized segment, say in the 8-15 year-old range?
 
I just finished a 1000-mile, week-long road trip in the P5, including a couple of the better driving roads in the Pacific Northwest (the North Cascades Highway and part of BC's Crowsnest). My 5-speed P5 struggled on the uphills (no surprise), but handled like a dream on the twisty sections, often catching up to cars that had easily outpaced it on the straights. And it made me wonder: What did Mazda do right with the P5, technically speaking, and why isn't this kind of handling more widespread in mass-market vehicles? The P5 is a ten year-old econowagon, so it can't be beyond the capabilities of other manufacturers.

I haven't driven many other Mazdas, so I can't compare the P5 to (say) the MX-5 or the 3, and I have pretty much zero experience driving high-end cars, but I've driven Nissans, Fords, Chevys, Hyundais, Toyotas, Chryslers, etc., many of them rentals, and I can't think of a car I've driven that has such a pleasing, razor-sharp, well-weighted steering response as the P5. So what's behind the magic? I know the four-wheel independent suspension with the front strut tower brace helps keep her flat and poised in the corners, but the steering is more of a mystery to me.

And as a related question: I'm planning to downsize from the family minivan (98 Nissan Quest) into a used midsize sedan or wagon sometime over the next year or so. What are the P5's fun-to-drive equivalents in the midsized segment, say in the 8-15 year-old range?

Yup, handles like a go-cart! That's why I'm still driving mine at 225K miles. Even the 3 and 3Speed don't corner as flat.
When some co produces a car that can corner as well, under $20k, I'll move on.

Different car companies have different marketing schemes, safety, luxury, status, speed. Mazda's niche is "vroom vroom fun to drive". I'm sure the entire suspension/steering is designed for that.

Several Mazda's I've driven as loaners all have quick ratio steering, so my guess is any Mazda will probably be better than alternatives. Have fun shopping.

Glad you're enjoying your ride.
 
Thanks, Stickman! That helps. I'll keep an eye out for used Mazda6 sedans or wagons in particular, though I've also been eyeing older Infinitis, Acuras, and 3-series BMWs.

I guess I can't see the downside of the P5's steering: almost zero dead spot, great response and feedback. In contrast, my Quest has numb, floaty steering with a big dead spot on center, and I can't see why anyone would prefer that steering feel, unless you like swinging the wheel wildly from side to side like they do in old movies. It's not like the P5's steering makes it more tiring or more demanding to drive.
 
I drive the hope-princeton stretch of that highway in my msp every winter. With some good tires, it's an absolute blast every time.
 
If you think the p5 handles good try it with the mp3/msp suspension setup :)

The only car I've had more fun driving is my 323 and the new frs I test drove. You you want a better driving experience look into the frs
 
If you think the p5 handles good try it with the mp3/msp suspension setup :)

The only car I've had more fun driving is my 323 and the new frs I test drove. You you want a better driving experience look into the frs

My old 323GT was way more fun than my msp. Damn I miss that car.
 
On most econboxes you get a single bar as the rear axle (=fail) and not an elegant independent rear suspension with good geometry.The front end comes with a strut tower brace to keep geometry proper in the hard turns.The rest is weight mamangement, steering ratios, balanced braking, and the like... Most cars are set up for vast amounts of understeer for the loose steering wheel nuts that get into trouble. My P5 was perfectly balanced in steering and handling. Like stated above, the Mazda goal was 'spirited driving'. Not some numb mushy cheap-to -build run-of-the-mill econobox!
 
oh - and to replace the Quest - look at a good low mileage Chrysler Pacifica (Mercedes chassis, but really cheap =WIN)
 
Well I'll compare to one of the cars i've owned previously. A chevrolet cavalier.
1. Weight...the P5 is 2700lbs...compared to many other cars of similar, or even smaller size, it's rather light. My Cavalier Coupe, without a driver grossed at around 3400lbs, good luck finding many wagons that weigh less than a protege.
2. Suspension. The P5 is much stiffer than a lot of the econoboxes you'll find. My best friend's father owned a P5, and decided to sell it for a better riding vehicle. Don't get me wrong, he praised the P5 for great handling, fun to drive, and the ride quality (should he have been a younger man) is really nice, but his lower back didn't like the potholes in the P5. My butt says the P5 has less than HALF the body roll that heavy chevy cavie I drove...and it's about a 1 1/2 ft longer. Not to mention, Fully independent front AND rear suspension. Many vehicles have a torsion bar in the rear...which is one, heavy and two, OLD TECH. Yeah, the P5 is a decade old, but the technology that went into its suspension is the same technology mazda put into their race cars. Also, did you look at the ride height? I've had people ask me if my STOCK P5 is lowered...always a no. Compared to the cavalier, which is the epitomy of cheap econobox, the p5 is rather low.
3. The Body! Every car on the road today is a Unibody car, and structural bracing is very important. If mazda had the foresight to put a front strut bar in the P5, one can speculate that the car elsewhere is pretty rigid. I remember seeing a build on these very forums not long ago where certain components of structure were being drilled and removed with little to no adverse effect on the rigidity of the car...THAT'S A SOLID BODY. Now, a unibody car will always have some flex in the turns...but a wagon, unlike a coupe or sedan, is more "egg" shaped. Not sure if you've ever studied the shape of an egg, but it's rather strong, with fewer points of flex than a comparable sedan or coupe, and thus is more flat in the corners! Not to mention, in my experience, the components of the car are rather solid. In the chevy I drove, the most common problem was the strut mounts failing (especially on lowered cars). Mine failed, most everybody I knew who owned a cavalier, their mounts failed...this is your springs and shock absorbers we're talking about! And mounts are failing? No...I've searched these forums, due to the previous car's failures, only to pleasantly find there are very few problems with structural components of the suspension failing!
4. Brakes! The P5 comes stock with front and rear disc brakes. The ability to reduce speed quickly, while dispersing heat efficiently is one of the biggest problems engineers face when building a car. The cars must be able to stop, must be able to brake while cornering, while maintaining a range of predictability for everyday driving. Many cars on the road, to this day, come with rear drums. For most cars, that's adequate. Most cars only require 30% of the front brakes capacity in the rear to keep the car straight. More or less will induce oversteer or understeer under braking while shifting momentum. The nice rigid mazdas that have a tendency to torque steer do well with some good solid rear discs. Why? Cause the increased rear braking capacity will allow the rear to exhibit more oversteer when the car wants to understeer when momentum is pushing the car sideways. That increase in braking capacity not only allows for more oversteer in the corners, but your straight line braking with good brakes is far superior to drums, not to mention easier to maintain! And the P5, while lacking anti-lock in most models and regions, has some fabulous brakes, in my opinion.
5. Steering...it's responsive, and on a Front Wheel Drive vehicle, that is key to cornering. With the drive wheels up front, it's nice to be able to adjust steering slightly and watch those front wheels just suck that front end around. It's predictable, it's precise, and that leads to much better driving experience. Like you said, when there's dead spots, or play in the steering, wallowing through the turns is about the best you're gonna do. When the steering is sharp and responsive, you're adjusting the direction of the front end with simple, predictable movements. Not throwing the wheel from side to side just to make the car turn.
And Finally 6...it's a Mazda...Chevy likes to think they're built like a rock...they handle like one too. Honda is powered by dreams...cause they are driven by 17 years olds dreaming of Fast and Furious. Mercedes Benz is unlike any other...and outprices them too. Nissans are built for the human race, you'd think they be built for the road race? And if BMW is the ultimate driving machine...why isn't their slogan ZOOM ZOOM!? More Mazdas are driven on any given weekend than any other automaker ON THE PLANET...not because the cars are fast, but because it doesn't take a pro race car driver to be able to track one, and be able to compete.
 
Dude cars in the 80s had front and rear brakes.

I find the steering in a regular protege to be a bit loose.

You've obviously never driven a 240sx or 300zx they don't handle as well but rwd is still a lot of fun.

The difference between the fsde and any Honda motor is Honda motors are built well and take abuse unlike the Fsde

I also found my 91 civic to handle pretty close to a protege lx and still be faster

A friend of mine had an early 90s caveleir and we decided to line them up one day and it was dead even to be heavier and 5 years older it's pretty sad

Don't get me wrong I love my mp3 but it would be much better to have a decent motor. I'm not hating on the protege platform by any means but it isn't and never has been the best car around. There has been better cars for less
 
Which cavalier was it? I had the 2200 OHV. Did your buddy's cavalier have the 2200 or 2.4L DOHC that was in the Z24? I had the 2200 with the Z24 suspension...and it had the get-up of a dead sloth.

I have driven the 240sx, not a 300zx, and to be honest, yeah...it's fun. But I don't like the unpredictability of oversteer. GRIP FTW

Honda motors built well? That's simply opinion. I had a piece of junk F22 I had in my drive last night? With 9 hoses going to and from the fuel tank, a bad vacuum block, and the rings fried at 30k on a professionally rebuilt motor, not to mention is just as slow as my P5. Or the '03 1.7L Single cam I've been losing sleep over for the last two weeks cause it's in time, not pulling codes, sensors are supplying correct voltage, and still won't start after a new ECU has been plugged up? Or maybe the EF hatch I watched BLOW UP under 6psi with 8.8:1 pistons, and a proper tune at the drag strip last weekend? Hondas have the valvetrain to make power...I agree, but as far as being built well...I'm inclined to disagree.They are no better built than anything else you'll find these days. ALL motors have their faults and point of failures...the FS-DE is the oil system.

While the 91 Civic may have more power than the mazda, I outrun them daily in the twisties...what was done to your EF? Granted most civics I leave with their jaw flapping require a major driver mod, but I've never had a problem holding time with faster cars when roads become...not straight.

Do I agree that the Protege needed a better motor? WHOLE HEARTEDLY, and yes there are better cars for less...but does it look as good, handle as good, get as good gas mileage, while maintaining the same ride quality comfort...for less? The P5 competed with the impreza wagon, A4 Avant Quattro, BMW 3 series Sport wagon, Daewoo Nubira, Mercedes C240 wagon, Pontiac Vibe, Suzuki Aerio SX, Toyota Matrix, Jetta wagon, and the Volvo V40. That's not all of the small wagons of the era, but I only see two or three of the entire list that would really compare to the P5 in terms of overall style, fuel economy, performance, and comfort, and none of the wagons that compare are less expensive. Yes there are older cars that could fit that bill, but between 2001 to 2003 there were few WAGONS that could compete.

and disc brakes have actually been around since the 50's. The Bel-Air was one of the first. Its not WHAT brakes you have on the car, it's how well they are balanced to the car. Throwing on some huge brakes up front or vice versa throwing big brakes on the rear will greatly change how the car handles, that's what I'm saying.
 
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Obviously you've never seen what happens to stock msps on 6 psi.

When you have built motors blow up at a track it either wasn't broken in and just had the piss run out of it or it wasn't put together Right.my lil d15b2 has been put through hell twice it had 2 or more qts low on oil it's all stock except for an exhaust. It was my rice project, I've tried blowing it up bounced it off the rev limiter 4 times in 5th ( I was safe about it) it has 238k miles on the motor and for a 22 year old car it handled those speeds very well.

I don't know much about f series but as for the d,b, and k series they're some of the best motors ever made.

Stock Hondas aren't fast but the market is much better and they can be made to easily out handle a protege. Which is a feat I've outran Porsches on back roads in my mp3

Honestly I wish it was easy to swap a b18 into a protege it would be the ultimate car
 

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