Wheel Spacers

[franky.c]

Hey guys,

This summer I'm looking go give my 2008 hatch a wider appearace for my rear wheels
(18x7.5 42mm offset on 225/40/18 tires).

Therefore, I wanted to know if anyone here has had any experience with this mod. I'm hoping to get some questions answered about:

-What kind to get?
-Does the size of the spacer affect tire wear drastically after a proper alignment?
-If I get rear spacers, will I have to get front spacers?
(uhm)

-And of course any recommendations or suggestions that I should consider before adding this mod.
I would appreciate it if some before & after pics would be posted so I can can have an idea of what to look forward to.

Thanks guys, hopefully someone can help me out.

 

[bbrich57]

Well, I would say that you are already pushing the limits for a street car using 42mm offset wheels.
Seriously, what do you hope to gain?

 

[Chefsp0t]

Stop being grumpy. Not everything is performance oriented. I have 8.5 +42s going on after I get the fenders modded.

You don't have to buy spacers for all 4 wheels if you don't want to but it would look weird. Spacers usually come in 2 piece sets.

Get some 10-12mm hubcentric spacers front and rear and your wheels will be a lot more flush with the fenders. You'll need to roll your fenders though. You can't get flush wheels without rolling the fenders.

 

[bbrich57]

Why am I being grumpy?
Because I think it's silly to put undue stress on the cars components by hanging the wheels way out beyond what the car was engineered for?
Because messing around with the mechanicals and geometry of the car solely in the name of appearance is dangerous?
Because I want my car (and yours) to be predictable in the emergency situations that will arise sooner or later on today's roads?
No, this is not about performance. It's about practical safety. The safety of the people in my car and others on the road.
There is a reason our cars were designed for a 52.5mm offset and everything else has been designed around that figure. Go plus or minus a bit and nothing much changes. But what you and he are proposing is a little more than a little.
There is no reason at all for doing this mod on a street car except "because it looks cool."
IMO, the cool factor does not apply where safety is involved.
Turn it into a dedicated track car and then do your mod, but please, keep it off the streets.

 

[Chefsp0t]

52.5mm offset = snow chain clearance at stock height. All cars are designed with fender clearance so that they can be fitted with snow chains. It also saves Mazda from having to replace fenders that are bent from contact with the wheel. That doesn't mean running wider wheels or lower offsets is going to cause you to total your vehicle because it handles erratically.

10-12mm spacers are 1/4" which is not that much really. They won't even push the wheel all the way out flush with the fender. I know people who run 25mm spacers daily. My 17x7 +38s stick out 15mm more than stock wheels and I have not had any issues with them all winter and I have not been driving nicely.

I know a lot of people with lowered vehicles (myself included) who have not had any issues with "undue stress" caused by spacing wheels out. Give me an example of someone who had something break on their car due to wheel offset being too low and not because they hit something or failed to regularly maintain their vehicle.

Unless you race your car regularly the every day driver is not even going to notice slight handling changes brought on by wheel offsets under normal driving conditions.

As far as accidents are concerned, a tree could fall on top of my car as easily as it could fall on yours and a driver could cut me off as easily as they cut you off. I can still drive my car just fine under these situations to avoid accidents. You're right, the vehicle responds differently but it does not make it uncontrollable or dangerous.

Unfortunately when it comes to cars there are a thousand different opinions and a thousand different styles. You can't understand all of them and you can't tell someone what they can and can't do to the vehicle that they drive every day.

 

[stkmp5]

52.5mm offset = snow chain clearance at stock height. All cars are designed with fender clearance so that they can be fitted with snow chains...
... You can't understand all of them and you can't tell someone what they can and can't do to the vehicle that they drive every day.

Well played sir. If the OP does want to go with spacers, definitely get hubcentric spacers. I would recommend http://www.ichibausa.com/index.html

 

[bbrich57]

In the first place I am not telling anyone they "can't do." But this is a forum. I am expressing my opinion and backing it up w/reasons why one "shouldn't."

Second, where did "lowering" come into this discussion? My car is lowered, and it's not my first. You wanna talk about what I had to do to lower an old Volvo I once had, and do it safely and properly? Lowering these cars is nothing compared to that. They make that real easy these days.

And wider tires? Where did that come from? I am running slightly wider (225>205) than OE tires too. But if I lived where the weather gets really bad and had only one set of tires for all seasons I would reconsider that too.

We were talking about wheel spacers, and you said 10-12mm =1/4"? A 1/4" is 6.35mm, not 10 or 12. Add to that he (and you) are already adding another 10.5mm to that figure and the total is.... 20.5- 22.5mm on each side of the car, or just a bit under 2" for each axle.

OK. I assume they still teach physics in our public schools? And that at some point the teacher put a ruler on top of two books that were about 6" apart and had someone push down on the ruler? Then moved the books out to 10" and pushed again? Remember that little example?
OK, it may be exaggerated to make the point, but those books and ruler were not going 70mph in all directions either, were they? Nor did they weigh 1.5 tons. Nor were they carrying passengers.

By hanging the wheels out much further than they were designed to be, stress is being put on hubs, axles, bearings, lug nuts and studs, and all the hardware that holds everything in place. There is a reason that our cars have a +52.5 while others have a +38, or even a -12 offset. Why does the 3 use a 52.5 when the 6 series uses a +60?

I wouldn't feel safe with anything more than a +45 on our cars. +/-5mm MAX has been the rule that I have heard and lived by for years now. Unless you are willing to redesign and build an entirely new suspension set up to accommodate the new offset you are doing more harm than good.

What do doctors have to swear to? What is the #1 rule in the Hippocratic Oath? In case you don't know, it's "Do no harm." A good rule to live by for all of us.

What about steering and scrub angles? Have you considered them? Understeer and push, as well as bump steer become much more pronounced, as does tire wear. And let's face it, these cars can chew up tires pretty quickly as it is.

 

[Chefsp0t]

All of those things are well and good but they don't give me any examples of things failing by installing wheels with offsets over +45. I understand the physics involved but you act like the car is going to fall apart and not drive anymore by doing such things. This is definitely not the case. I stand by my post above.

This is a forum and you are entitled to your opinion but I am giving the OP more valuable information regarding his original post, which was about spacers and what size to use in the first place. Not what the benefits and drawbacks are in a physics lab or on the race track.

 

[bbrich57]

Yeah, that's right. And I am just some idiot that been around cars and physics for the last 50+ yrs not learning a damned thing from those experiences.
And you are.... 26? Hmmm. Well then, I guess that makes you are an expert.
Your "opinions" are incomplete as well, and your logic faulty. You may have answered his question(s) more directly than I but you are not helping him to understand the why's and why nots of the situation he proposes doing... and he is clearly asking about those too.

 

[Chefsp0t]

(deadhorse

 

[franky.c]

thanks for the input guys (from both sides of the argument)
I think I'm convinced though. I don't want to risk my safety or a passenger's safety just because I want the car to look 'cool.' So I don't think I'll be making this purchase any time soon.

 

[bbrich57]

Do you honestly believe Mazda decided a +52.5mm offset was good for snow chain clearance?
OMG!! That is completely ridiculous.

 

[Tungsten6]

haha this thread is getting good(popcorn)

 

[bbrich57]

You stay outta' this!!

 

[Chefsp0t]

52.5mm offset = snow chain clearance at stock height. All cars are designed with fender clearance so that they can be fitted with snow chains. It also saves Mazda from having to replace fenders that are bent from contact with the wheel. That doesn't mean running wider wheels or lower offsets is going to cause you to total your vehicle because it handles erratically.

I never said it was completely because of snow chain clearance but it does have something to do with it. Cars have lots of wheel/fender clearance from the factory for many reasons. Any car manufacturer has to satisfy a large group of people and avoid cost to themselves if they have wheels and tires that can rub the fenders or throw the suspension out of whack. Different cars have different offset wheels because of different suspension design and different body panels and axle lengths, etc. I never said the suspension wasn't engineered to be a certain way.

I SAID that your thoughts are purely based on physics and not specific, real life examples. Can you provide specific examples of cars that have had failed suspensions, wheel bearings, and axles solely because they used wheels with a lower offset than stock? Even if you can produce one or two it could hardly be called a regular occurrence or people would stop doing it. If what you say is true, any race prepared, stock class car with a wider stance than the manufacturer gave it from the factory would be useless but that's not the case is it?

 

[franky.c]

im sure the snow chain clearance is not the only reason.

 

[bbrich57]

Unbelievable.

 

[Chefsp0t]

Still waiting for examples. I fail to see how installing spacers on a car that never gets raced and maybe sees 80mph twice a month is going to cause the car to fall apart. Wheel bearings will wear faster but that's known to happen and most likely won't cause catastrophic failure without a little notice first. Scrub radius is affected as well but ride height affects that too, right? I don't even want to get started on ride height changing suspension geometry. We're not talking about putting zero offset wheels on here. I'm talking about moderately aggressive fitment between +45 and +35. Not something that pokes 2 inches past the edge of the fender.

If you want low offset wheels the maintenance on your wheel bearings will be more often and you may experience more tire wear, but it is not done for performance gains it's for the style and look of the car. It's not all about performance and you have to know this going in and prepare to pay accordingly.

 

[Kaze]

LOL

The most I would add is a 5mm spacer. Anything above that you should get the ones with the bolt on studs, or get extended studs. Just gotta torque them down. Should be fine especially if you don't drive hard, which isn't even necessary for daily driving unless you are just a jackass driver. Hell, some autox people use spacers.

I kind of laugh at the idea of low offset wheels being dangerous. lol.

 

[bbrich57]

You guys are taking what I'd said to extremes. I sometimes forget that the young, especially young males see the world in black and white... all or nothing.

I never said or even suggested that there would be immediate and catastrophic failure, just that additional stress w/o good reason (e.g. racing) is silly. And as you've finally seem to realize or admit, Chef, additional wear on tires and other components will surly be the result. But the further away from spec you get, the faster the wear. That only makes sense.
And sure racers have to compromise between being competitive and additional wear and tear on parts. Between a car with more grip (or less) and it being a challenge to handle at the wheel. But racers know that, and accept it as part of racing. Besides, an auto-x run lasts 30 secs. If you have 5 runs at the event a total of 2.5mins total.
One of the most highly modified auto-xer's on this site is Tigermack. I'm sure we all know him. He runs extreme wheels and rubber. His car is lowered and sway barred into the weeds, but he does do repairs and upgrades. He has tried various things to see what works on the track and on the street. Besides, I'm not even sure he drives that car on the roads anymore? I'm pretty sure he trailers it to the events these days.

As for examples of failure due to extreme mods in wheels ans suspension, yes I have a few. So what? You wouldn't know them, and I wouldn't even know where they are today to verify my claims. That's not the point I'm making here.
You want examples? OK. When I was a young and stupid teenager, and growing up just north of you now Chef (ABE area,) wide negative offset wheels and jacking up the back of a car was the thing to do. Oh , and blacked out hoods too. That was important. Make it look like a dragster. Make it "look" fast.
VW's and Vans were often included. In fact VW's were VERY popular. Jack up a VW, put on wide neg offset wheels and wide tires, and these guys were replacing rear wheel bearings every 6 months. The handling suffered because now the car has positive camber in the rear and the weight distribution is biased more towards the front than was intended. Positive caster in the front was also a result. In the name of looking cool and fast, bump steer and bad handling was the order of the day.
Those that couldn't afford wheels used spacers to make their wheels look wider. Sometimes the spacers, or studs broke off, probably due to improper installation or poor quality spacers, but I did know a guy that kept losing lug nuts because the wheels studs would break off. He had a "hot" VW and one time I remember him having only 3 lugs (out of 5, 4 to 5 lug conversion) left on one rear wheel.

Another guy I knew in passing, a friend of a friend actually, had a Camaro 302. He had really wide wheels on the rear, probably 10"... deep offset too and he too had to replace rear bearings twice in the short time I knew him. IIRC the car was a '68 or '69 and this was around 1973, so it wasn't that old, nor did it have a lot of miles on it.

So I ask you all again, why do harm to your DD (and your wallet) for the sake of coolness? Do you think the girls will swoon over them?
Sure, I have done appearance only mods to every car I've ever owned, including my 3. But I avoid doing more harm than good when considering them. I have learned over time, and I'm simply trying to pass what I have learned on so that you guys don't have to make the mistakes I've made, or avoided making through the mistakes I saw others making.
Is it really that important, or would it make more sense to improve the performance AND appearance at the same time?
The OP now seems to think so.

There is a lot more to this than simply buying a set of wheels spacers, wider wheels and installing them. Everything you do affects everything else. It's always a compromise, and it always will be.When modding our vehicles as car guys will do, we have to weigh the pros and cons of every action, every change. For every change done to the chassis/rolling stock of a vehicle many other things can be, and usually are affected.
I don't know what more I can say to convince you. I just know that I'm tired, so believe me or not. Think about what I've said or don't.
You know I wasn't always the old fart you see before you today. I do have a history, and that history includes many, many cars, and many, many mods too.
Take it or leave it.