What EMS systems are there?
- Thread starter TheBryGuy
- Start date
- Status
MPNick said:
You did a nice job of skipping the point again. I just proved with the ECU relationship grid, that your post above was supposed to be in reference to, just how many things will cause your timing to drift when you claim it will not. So I say it again.. the TIMING WILL DRIFT on the MPI.
The OEM systems power and cost lies largely in satsifying emissions and being able to be on thousands of cars without adjustment and make them all run well. Since a standalone or the like is customized exactly to the car that it is put on and since as we've stated emissions has never been a focus of our development you are again avoiding the issue and trying to state an advantage that doesn't really exist the way you want it to.
Bigg Tim said:
So then why do you sit and rave about the number that were gotten before when it turns around and yields something totally different somewhere else?that's exactly why dyno numbers are in large part BS... too much variability to really compare. Hell I had to overrate my boost pressure on my dyno because I wasn't willing to call it a 12 psi run (which is what it held through most of the pull) because it spiked to 13.1 during the run... so I called it a 13 psi run... a 13 psi run that's only a few horse off you guys but this time on 93 octane in a dyno room with only one crap fan no the 29th run with an ambient of 101 degrees...
MPNick said:
I did state how I really feel. I'm tired of the crap with the EMS's. you can't deny that there are SOME things a standalone does better... but you continue to try to say that they do not in any way. I freely admit publicly all over the place that the Microtech doesn't do emissions... it throws a CEL... if you want to not have those things and still have a good system... go MPI... but every time someone talks about wanting to go big power and/or doesn't care about emissions you still deride the standalone either directly or indirectly and talk about how you guys have made the most power when you know as well as I do that the dyno can't accurately compare two cars on different setups in different states in different seasons... I ran a dyno within 5% of your best with an exhaust so restrictive it stalls the turbo at 1 psi higher boost not to mention all the other issues with the shop and the dyno I had to use.
I get annoyed because I freely admit what shortcoming exist on the Microtech so that people know what they will have to deal with or not deal with, but the MPI is supposedly all roses top to bottom when I've seen and heard otherwise on plenty of occasions. And you dodge the questions that are posed or try and lay blame elsewhere... you immediately go after the Microtech on emissions. how many times do I have to say it doesn't do them? It'll fail a sniff or a CEL in a heartbeat right now... so why do you have to make it out like it's the biggest flaw in the world... I continually admit to it and even tell people right in the middle of a sale that they have to be sure they don't want emissions... and as a result I've lost several customers and pushed them to the MPI instead... wasn't a loss to me because I figured you respected me and the way I run a business and that you'd lend some support toward us publicly or otherwise... and I don't see it or feel it certainly... so I'm finally fed up and tired and being rather public this time around about the MPI's issues. Doesn't mean I don't think it is a useful unit that works well... but it isn't all roses.
BlkZoomZoom said:
My problem isn't with the stock PCM... if you can ever really tune that thing completely and effectively (Xede and Dynoflash, and so forth don't do so effectively so we won't even go to that)... then it is far superior to a standalone... but it is also very very very hard to understand and program due to the complexity. My point is not that the PCM is a weakness is that the PCM is too strong and will overpower and mess with MPI even with how good Nick's tricks around the ECU are. The timing will drift in more situations than just the good ones that you listed.. and keep in mind that the PCM's job is to keep the car running conservatively (aka avoid a warranty claim problem safe sort of conservative) and to keep it running within emissions specifications for the useable life of the car (200K plus). Those goals are the PCM's goals and some of the actions needed to achieve that are counter to running a highly modified car for power and response.
That was my point. I've stated many times that the MPI can and will do the job... but it is not all roses and perfect like people keep trying to say and I'm tired of it and won't let it slide by when the "your standalone is not perfect" comments start.
Last edited:
505--I believe the 13psi run on Deans was with the stock exhaust, exhaust cutout closed. I could be wrong, it was a long time ago.
Sam--This is what I was told by a user. You mess with the angle or whatever. I was told you have to "advance" the timing via the cam angle, or whatever it is, and use the SW to retard timing. This is what I was told. It could be wrong, but it made sense because seeing that a lot of people had to mess with that setting to get the correct timing.
Turf--I meant spending $1k+, not 1k more. For a grand, the damn system better make more power. Dyno's can be used as a comparison if the factors are similar. I posted the ambient and all that crap, so even though it will not be exact, show me a general comparison with the same results. And using a Mustang and saying "it would be XXXwhp on a dynojet" doesn't work. Your damn right the altitude, gas and air make a difference.
I'll get back to the dyno and see if I can get my AZ numbers back up there. And it will be on the SAME dyno I used before, since he's and outside source that does nothing with protege's.
Beau--I know technical data is supposed to be off real world info, but I meant show me some of your guys real world data, not just sheets or "book talk". And I think you would be sexy with a mullet and those military BC glasses on.(yes)
Sam--This is what I was told by a user. You mess with the angle or whatever. I was told you have to "advance" the timing via the cam angle, or whatever it is, and use the SW to retard timing. This is what I was told. It could be wrong, but it made sense because seeing that a lot of people had to mess with that setting to get the correct timing.
Turf--I meant spending $1k+, not 1k more. For a grand, the damn system better make more power. Dyno's can be used as a comparison if the factors are similar. I posted the ambient and all that crap, so even though it will not be exact, show me a general comparison with the same results. And using a Mustang and saying "it would be XXXwhp on a dynojet" doesn't work. Your damn right the altitude, gas and air make a difference.
I'll get back to the dyno and see if I can get my AZ numbers back up there. And it will be on the SAME dyno I used before, since he's and outside source that does nothing with protege's.
Beau--I know technical data is supposed to be off real world info, but I meant show me some of your guys real world data, not just sheets or "book talk". And I think you would be sexy with a mullet and those military BC glasses on.(yes)
Last edited:
- :
- Hemi Ram, 71 Plymth Scamp, 71 Plymth Duster 340, 69 Dart 340/4sp
JDM Sam said:
Wow, very nice units. The Motec880 even has can capabilites. However they still only scratch the surface of the stock pcm capabilities. Show me a standalone unit that can control all of these functions correctly and effectively,
Then you will have a standalone that has the capabilites of a stock pcm and can have a chance of passing emissions. And the really funny thing is the Protege pcm is a dinosaur compared to the new pcm's out there now. The new pcm's have their hands in everything and anything.
- :
- Hemi Ram, 71 Plymth Scamp, 71 Plymth Duster 340, 69 Dart 340/4sp
TurfBurn said:
The Mpi changes alot of the signals before the pcm sees them to make the pcm do what it wants it to do. With that in mind, how many situations is the pcm going to see and do something drastic? Not many if any that I can think of. I am still waiting for an example of a bad example that the pcm will see.
I don't think any unit is perfect. Not even the stock pcm's are perfect and since that is all we (as an industry) have to base our goals off of no unit will ever be perfect. As I stated before, every unit has it's place.
I'm glad to see the horse is now down to the size of microbes.
BlkZoomZoom said:
Well, it'd be damn near impossible to program though too... so there is a balance.. you want a lot of power and flexibility without so much that you have issues with trying to get any of it to work.
Keep in mind that the stock ECU if it hears any kind of knock it pulls out a LOT of timing on all 4 cylinders. To some extent knock is going to occur to small extents at high performance, although you never want that to really be the case... that, or use of something like the J&S is going to remedy that.
You want cases where it would be bad with respect to the MPI for the stock ecu to pull timing:
1) coolant temp: the stock ecu will add or pull timing at different levels of coolant temp to help keep emissions inline. In some cases you may want the opposite of what the stock ECU does to be able to get the most power. For example, the stock ECU wants to run the combustion chambers a fair bit hotter... with coolant temps around 180 degreees (thermostat temp). However, the ideal temperature for making more power (but emissions suffer some) is closer to 150F... but the stock ECU will likely alter timing one way or another at the range. Minor... but again nobody knows for sure what that value is or isn't.
2) MAF: You go high enough on the readings you hit fuel cut. But you can get around that with the MPI I believe by scaling the MAF voltage.. BIG problem there though because now that you scaled it differently than the computer knows to see it, suddenly A doesn't equal A any more.. now A =B or maybe C which means it uses a different timing or fuel map other than optimal - the mass flowing into the engine is now inaccurately reported which means the calculations of the ECU are now incorrect. Now not only are you remapping those stock ECU maps that are the basis of the system, but you've shifted them to be where they don't belong as far as the programming. Who knows what kind of mess you will all get into at that point.
BlkZoomZoom said:
I don't think any unit is perfect either. Tuning cold start and idle is probably the hardest part of a standalone. It's not impossible by any stretch, but I tell all my customers that most of their tuning time and the most difficult part is with startup. We've remedied a lot of it, and with more units and more setups more of it will get taken care of. The 550cc turbo guys are completely squared away. the 227cc guys are in pretty good shape... and the 440cc guys I need to do more on to get that to my satisfaction. Once the tuning is done though, it's a non-issue and the cars run great. Throttle response improves greatly compared to stock, and overall people like the way the car feels once tuned. We obviously don't pass emissions yet and it'll be a bit for me to figure that one out, but it'll happen eventually. So the initial tune is a little more difficult (the main body of the tune is very easy though), and our emissions is garbage...
- :
- Hemi Ram, 71 Plymth Scamp, 71 Plymth Duster 340, 69 Dart 340/4sp
TurfBurn said:
I think you would be more right if it only changed one signal at a time.
Which it doesn't, it was all calibrated with the protege in mind. If it changes the maf readings, it also changes the other inputs compensate for the other things the stock pcm would do in that situation. I will agree 100% that it may not be 100% corrected by the other sensors being changed. But you make it sound as if the pcm sees a signal off it will throw the car into a vortex and get sucked into the next dimension.
Like I said before, in my opinion if you want every ounce of power and did not care about driveability, emissions, creature comforts, or reliability then Standalone would be the only way to go. But for someone that still uses the car on a daily basis (or semi-daily basis), has some good power mods, needs to pass inspection, needs to not worry about if their car is going to make the road trip, the Mpi is the way to go.
Did you ever get an IAC valve on the microtech?
You don't really lose driveability or creature comforts with the standalone though. Most of the guys have said that their cars are MORE driveable with the Microtech than the stock ECU.
I don't mean to make it sound like it gets sucked into a vortex... the car will run... but my point from the start there was that you are NOT in control of what the motor will do. You are merely tweaking it to do a little more of what you want, but the stock ECU still is the dominating force on that motor.
I daily drive my car in the summer because I love the car too much... it really doesn't belong on the street because of the suspension and so forth... but I like it so I drive it.
We have not done the IAC on the Microtech yet, but we do have the ability to do so on the LT10S. I just haven't gotten a unit to play with it yet myself. But it uses the exact same method of controlling it that the stock ECU uses. So it should work well once tweaked. But we have not found it to be necessary thus far either.
I don't mean to make it sound like it gets sucked into a vortex... the car will run... but my point from the start there was that you are NOT in control of what the motor will do. You are merely tweaking it to do a little more of what you want, but the stock ECU still is the dominating force on that motor.
I daily drive my car in the summer because I love the car too much... it really doesn't belong on the street because of the suspension and so forth... but I like it so I drive it.
We have not done the IAC on the Microtech yet, but we do have the ability to do so on the LT10S. I just haven't gotten a unit to play with it yet myself. But it uses the exact same method of controlling it that the stock ECU uses. So it should work well once tweaked. But we have not found it to be necessary thus far either.
TurfBurn said:
More driveable then the stock ECU using an FMU/clamp setup? If they are turbo, how were they getting fuel before? I agree 100% it should drive better with an EMS versus using the stock ECU and FMU. So just saying it drives better and gets better gas milage is pretty open.
Mental Addiction
Banned
Bigg Tim said:
Tim,
How driveable is a car that:
bucks when going into boost
drift's timing
throws CEL for going lean, to rich or misfire. MPI FOOLER claims EMISSIONS
Look what happens when a stock sensor goes bad. MPI FOOLER can't fool anymore then and BOOM
Mental Addiction
Banned
MPNick said:
NICK,
Instead of trying to start a kidding war on mine is bigger than yours, answer the many questions that have been uncovered about your MPI FOOLER... Or is it because your big ego has made you stop learning along time ago? You use the same tatics you taught PERFWORKS. Steve put out alot of good info that I could never get an answer from you on. Educate all of us Nick.
- Status
