What EMS systems are there?

[JDM Sam]

I "******* care" because Nick sees it necessary to go after the Microtech and standalones in general... so it's fine for him to attack other systems but for us to state facts and questions about the MPI is an issue?

1000 more? Last I checked the turbo MPI's ran right around 680 do they not? That would mean I run about 300 bucks higher... umm... Considering the MPI can't eliminate the stock ECU killing injectors for fuel cut, or move the rev limiter, etc.. I see that as 300 bucks rather well spent on top of everything else...

The numbers will come, just not as many units out there or as much time... the MPI has a good 2-3 year head start on my systems... so what do you expect?

$685 plus cost for extra injectors plus labor for welding of the injectors holders.

 

[JDM Sam]

I've dealt with both the piggyback and standalones for this protege.
People who know me know this. I'm sick of this EMS bulls***. Everyone has their opinion on what they prefer to run. Time to tell the full story. This is my non-watered down version of tuning both.

The MPI does throw CEL's if settings arent set up right. ie. fuel calibration. I have seen a lot of maps where this was the first problem I saw. (Fixable by tuning)
I have also seen it tach out the engine temp gauge on occasion. (Fixable by unknown)
If you have a CEL you tune is overriden by the PCM and your tune is trash until it goes away. (Fixable by clearing your CEL) Contrary to what the narrowband on the software is not accurate to 1 tenth or unit of AFR. Stick a wideband on and compare. The MPI works but not on all cars. What bothers me is when it doesn't work. The first thing I see people blame is the wiring. Then it's something on the car. People are told to start replacing perfectly good sensors left and right. MSP's are only 2 years old and they shouldn't require replacing every sensor just to run a piggyback. I understand if their car is beat up and poorly maintained and ran like s*** before, but not if it ran fine with no CEL's. The turbo module method is hit or miss. Running the extra injectors and timing control works without a problem though.

Now for the standalone. I have dealt with the cold start problem. I fouled out a set of plugs getting it right. When you first set it up it will not have the best cold start map. This is a trial and error till it's perfect. Something a novice or beginner would have problems with. Once you have it down it will start up time and time again like OEM. Just have some spare spark plugs around b/c you will foul out a set or two tuning. I've also dealth with having to tune a map from scratch. Not something a beginner wants to do. Existing maps library will help.

I've made good power with both the MPI and Haltech. You can drag out pro/cons over and over, we know the facts already. The thing is Nick seems to want to make it a pissing contest. Nick, if you believe your unit is the s*** and way to go, then just let your dynos do the talking. Why instigate? Bashing other products and hyping up yours is no way to do business and sell a product. Notice NSN tells both sides of the EMS equation but you however don't and haven't in this thread or any thread for that matter related to EMS.

And for everyones reference 300 hp on a built motor isn't s***. I expect a built motor to have at least 400+ to be impressive. I've only heard of one car pushing at least that number and know of one that has which was the Ziel Motorsports Drag Protege.
Why don't y'all duke it out on a dyno competion? Build the baddest protege you can no holds barred. Use the same dyno, location, and conditions. Set your rules and restrictions. Otherwise quit beating a dead horse.(deadhorse

So set a time/date to host a dyno competition in the summer. You all can settle this in the proper manner. No excuses. Time to put up or shut up. How's about it? Let's organize it and winner gets to brag all they want after.

 

[JDM Sam]

They are both a very nice sale page. Where are the Protege running them? Did they pass the state testing? How much power are they making? Do they drive just like stock?

Actually, I believe there's an alternative emissions test for cars with malfunctioning OBD2 ports here in TX. I have to talk to my inspection guy and make sure. They are required to pass a sniffer and thats it. You can easily pass with a standalone then with a good tune and a good functioning cat.

 

[JDM Sam]

Sam--This is what I was told by a user. You mess with the angle or whatever. I was told you have to "advance" the timing via the cam angle, or whatever it is, and use the SW to retard timing. This is what I was told. It could be wrong, but it made sense because seeing that a lot of people had to mess with that setting to get the correct timing.

The Trigger Angle is what you are referring to. That setting uses the crank and cam angle sensor are what the ECU uses to monitor engine postion and set base timing. Setting this up in the software is normal with any standalone. It's just more detailed on the standalone. People have been messing with the trigger angle b/c they didn't know the setting for Mazda A Triggers. Haltech already states which range of degrees BTDC to use. Most people just didn't read or chose to ignore it.
So basically you set base timing with the trigger angle and then you map your timing maps. The first part is already there, people just thought they would play engineer and mess with it.

You set it up the MPI similarly by setting the type of ignition and teeth per firing in the global ignition tab, modes tab, and system config tab.
Just w/o the base timing stuff.

 

[igdrasil]

Ive never got a cel no misfires, nothing I have had to lower my upper fuel limit to not hit the fuel cut ,big deal it works and works well. I have had no other issues . I bet if i got one of the standalones i would have way more issue with them then i ever would with the Mpi . No switch point issues for me . Goes straight into pulling .

NEVER MAN! NEVER

A standalone will do what you want to do. Theres no piggyback or CELs or a stock pcm doing changes behind the piggyback.

Tell me then that if the stock ECU is better than a standalone, why all those 9sec cars dont use it?

PIggybacks are nice, but just that. But they are just a dream of what a standalone can do.

And let me tell you. A standalone is easier to install than a piggyback, and even easier to setup, start the car and tune.

 

[Bigg Tim]

The MPI does throw CEL's if settings arent set up right. ie. fuel calibration. I have seen a lot of maps where this was the first problem I saw. (Fixable by tuning)
I have also seen it tach out the engine temp gauge on occasion. (Fixable by unknown)
If you have a CEL you tune is overriden by the PCM and your tune is trash until it goes away. (Fixable by clearing your CEL) Contrary to what the narrowband on the software is not accurate to 1 tenth or unit of AFR. Stick a wideband on and compare. The MPI works but not on all cars. What bothers me is when it doesn't work. The first thing I see people blame is the wiring. Then it's something on the car. People are told to start replacing perfectly good sensors left and right. MSP's are only 2 years old and they shouldn't require replacing every sensor just to run a piggyback. I understand if their car is beat up and poorly maintained and ran like s*** before, but not if it ran fine with no CEL's. The turbo module method is hit or miss. Running the extra injectors and timing control works without a problem though.............

If your car is running properly and you install the unit properly, then it WILL work properly IF tuned, you are right on that. Not all CEL's will throw the tune off. For instance, a CEL for the rear O2 (I think it's P0421) did NOT have any ill affects on my tune when I had it. Now if you have something else work that is more severe, then yes it will affect it, but if that happens, you need to fix the issue regardless. The MPI does not hide problems with the car. I have never heard of people being told to replace sensors that don't need to be replaced. The only think I have heard of was replacing O2 sensors, that may or may not be correct for all instances, but there were some that it worked for. The fact is, if the car does not have prior issues, there should be no reason for the MPI to work the way it should.

On the Haltech, I waas stating what I heard. You advance the timing, dont know how, and use the SW to retard it. I believe the FAST system does the same thing. I guess it's more common to do on some standalones, but IMO I think it's crap. But you know what they say about opinions.

I fully agree people will always like one over the other and that a potential customer should make their own decision. But bashing a unit, whether piggy or standalone, does not make things easier. Nor does posting problems you had with the unit that ultimatly were your fault (not yours in specific) and then not telling people what the problem was.

When I was trying to help a local guy with his, I did only the MPI part and he did the rest of the car and asured me the car was right. I could not tune the car right, so when I looked at it, I saw the MAF was in backwards. I fixed it and the car tuned as easily as I said it would. Then he got on here and told the problem AND the resolution so that people knew that it was a problem that was overlooked with the installation, not the MPI. This is the proper way to handle things with ANY system. But when people have problems and talk trash, find and fix the problem then never get on and post that info, it makes the system bad. People are too afraid to be wrong. Everyone is wrong at some point and it's not the end of the world, nor is criticism or one unit or the next. So people need to stop taking things personal, myself included.(thumb)

 

[JDM Sam]

another thing im sick of is the intrusion of a thread of a specific ems and someone trying to sway them to another one. its not a ******* popularity contest. we know what each system can do. sticky that s*** at the top of the section!

 

[TurfBurn]

Could i run this to my stock check engine light that i cut the wire to? (boom07) That would be pretty neat.

Not that I know of unfortunately.

 

[TurfBurn]

The Trigger Angle is what you are referring to. That setting uses the crank and cam angle sensor are what the ECU uses to monitor engine postion and set base timing. Setting this up in the software is normal with any standalone. It's just more detailed on the standalone. People have been messing with the trigger angle b/c they didn't know the setting for Mazda A Triggers. Haltech already states which range of degrees BTDC to use. Most people just didn't read or chose to ignore it.
So basically you set base timing with the trigger angle and then you map your timing maps. The first part is already there, people just thought they would play engineer and mess with it.

You set it up the MPI similarly by setting the type of ignition and teeth per firing in the global ignition tab, modes tab, and system config tab.
Just w/o the base timing stuff.

The trigger signal (the missing tooth) occurs 90 degrees BTDC.

 

[LinuxRacr]

FYI... I own linux racers original TM. It has been on my car for about 6 months, and I have NO issues it at all with it. My car runs great with theMPI, and old TM.

Get a wideband!!!

 

[JBreed]

Get a wideband!!!

Pat, I use the mpi software, and it reads safely...I know I would feel better with one, but for now I run no more than 10psi, I should be fine, I hope!

 

[LinuxRacr]

The question is if that laptop of yours is going to be hooked up all the time? Also, how will you know if something starts to go wrong if it is not hooked up all the time? Also, looking over at the laptop all the time while driving can be a safety hazzard. A wideband will make it a lot easier on you man.

 

[505zoom]

FYI... I own linux racers original TM. It has been on my car for about 6 months, and I have NO issues it at all with it. My car runs great with theMPI, and old TM.

That is not the same TM as I have... Pat got his swapped out for one that works. Doesn't really matter though, I think Nick just decides who he wants to help and I somehow got on the wrong side of that. I think that's ******* bulls*** since I was the one that got his tuner sales going here on this board (nobody wanted to take the risk with all the perfworks drama and all the questions of whether or not it would work).

I never did ANYTHING to Nick except try a different way to run his EMS (FM clamp, aux injectors, and timing)... and I guess if I ever really wanted a full working system I shouldn't have done that because it obviously pissed him off.

Oh and Tim, you did not have that version. Pat and I were the only ones that were sent that bad version.

 

[JDM Sam]

The trigger signal (the missing tooth) occurs 90 degrees BTDC.

The setting for the Haltec isn't 90 though for the Mazda A trigger type. its
+/- 2 at 65.

 

[Bigg Tim]

......Oh and Tim, you did not have that version. Pat and I were the only ones that were sent that bad version.

I have rebuilt my TM MANY times to try what he had out so I can help a lil better. I have had every combination that has been out except the latest. I have done all version to help him test things including the O2 tuning method.

 

[glyph]

man, this is just another one of those threads.

 

[MPNick]

Absolutely not. You sent linuxracr and I the same "revised" TM (we were the only 2 people who got that particular version). We both had the exact same issues with tuning the switch point. You sent him a new one, and at that time you told me that I would get one when linux confirmed that the new one was fixed... that was the last time I was ever told that I could get a replacement without buying it. What do you mean I went to the darkside so you pulled back your offer? What justification do you have for telling a customer (one that pretty much got MPI tuner sales off the ground for you in the msp market no-less) that they don't deserve a working product? What did I do to deserve no free replacement? I will even dig up my old PM's to you if you want to try and claim that you were offering a free replacement.

Please lets not play this game. Why do so many people only post half of the story.

Did you not have you TM wires wrong, may have been my fault. Was it not Pat you found this out because you sent him photos or something like this. You did make a post on finding that your By pass valve was leaking. Was there any other problems? You had more then a share of problem with your car and how it got installed. You never got a defective TM. I just made changes to the later ones.

Yes you did help me with more then just sales. Even with the IM thing that I never had used before. That is why I had offerd to send you out an upgraded TM at no charge. Then out of nowehre you were going to the dark side selling the MPI. You also made post's that should have never been made. I will go to the end of the worlds for a customer, just do not **** me. If they do then they are done.

AS far as Pats car goes. He did post that in the end. Right before he removed the MPI. He found a air leak and the O2 wire was **** up. He did fix the two problems and his car ran great.

 

[mazdaspeed75]

A

Let me put my 2 cents in on Nick . I talked with Nick several times about the mpi before i finally got it . He helped me from start to finish . He told me up front car needs to be runninf right first . It was and still is and that is why iam so happy with the mpi . Oh and for anyone that would like to run me on my mpi tune . Hers a little vid of my 12 lbs of fury . Dyno coming sone . Nick i think you will be surprised about the dyno numbers . And this is the same dyno ive been on all 2 times . (hah) save target as

 

[JBreed]

again, I will say I run pat's old TM, and it works fine. My car runs great!

505zoom...
I know it's the same, as he has told me it was.



QUOTE=MPNick]Please lets not play this game. Why do so many people only post half of the story.

Did you not have you TM wires wrong, may have been my fault. Was it not Pat you found this out because you sent him photos or something like this. You did make a post on finding that your By pass valve was leaking. Was there any other problems? You had more then a share of problem with your car and how it got installed. You never got a defective TM. I just made changes to the later ones.

Yes you did help me with more then just sales. Even with the IM thing that I never had used before. That is why I had offerd to send you out an upgraded TM at no charge. Then out of nowehre you were going to the dark side selling the MPI. You also made post's that should have never been made. I will go to the end of the worlds for a customer, just do not **** me. If they do then they are done.

AS far as Pats car goes. He did post that in the end. Right before he removed the MPI. He found a air leak and the O2 wire was **** up. He did fix the two problems and his car ran great.[/QUOTE]

 

[TurfBurn]

See my problem is that I have not derided the MPI, I have referred it to numerous people,

I do thank you for all of the people that you have sent to me. I know that this was done out of your honest opinion of the MPI Tuner. Now if your opinion changes it will not be out of your honesty. It will be for personal reasons, not from facts. So you will have to deal with yourself as to what you will tell people.

Unlike you I will still continue to tell people if the MPI is what fits their wants/needs, but unlike previously I will tell them the issues the unit DOES have. I have gone out of my way to not publicly discuss or point out the issues the MPI has, nor tell them to potential customers. It doesn't mean I don't think some people should still use it for their cars. That's where the maturity difference obviously is.

Nick, however have been nothing but an ass and taken pot shots at standalones and been a jerk.

I am not the kind of person that is PC. I do not live that way on or off this forum. I do not run my business that way. Just because someone comes into my shop with a hand full of money, does not guarantee he or she will like what they hear from me. I do not bull s***, I say what I feel and what I believe. I do not have the time or need to play the make someone feel good game. Most things are black and white to me. I have never at anytime, on or off of this forum hid my opinion on the standalones. I have used them on race cars and street cars. The piggyback has always been my only choice for any street car. I have yet to see a street car with a standalone do all of the things that a piggyback will do. Not some of the things, there is more to a street car then WOT. That is the very same reason why you have sent me customers.

The simple fact is you could have not taken the shots. They weren't necessary, but the moment an opening would come up or someone would say they liked or wanted a standalone you immediately took the shots. And that is the BS. I'm well aware of the fact that there is more to a car than WOT. Ask the people that have ridden in my car or driven it if it has issues... the only issue it has it the ability to make people's mouths drop because of how smooth and well behaved it is...

You seem to lack the professionalism to survive in a professional relationship of any sort. Word has it you got kicked off other forums for this same issue.

Simply put you are a little child who can't play nice with the rest of the crew. I have respected your business and you, but that is done with. If you can not give equal respect to the rest of the vendors on here then screw you.

Who is actting like a fouled mouth little boy bashing a vendor here? I give every vendor the same respect. But if someone ***** me, then.....
Not even worth the time...


I know who got my group buy screwed, and I know how childish you are.

How do you walk down this road and then make it sound like you are lost? Was it not you that was bitching about MAP prices not being followed by other vendors? You are pissed at other vendors for under cutting product lines and then you do the very same thing and get pissed when you get found out doing the very same thing. Did I not tell both you and the other vendors that I do protect my product lines? Rule of business, protect you product lines, do not ***** them. But here is where them problem lies. You and some other vendors do not have a real world business. No brick and mortar for most of you guys. Your business address is you e-mail. Something that is done part time after you are done with your day job that pays the bills. You have a very honest daytime job that you do very well day in and day out. Bottom line is that if you pay for a vendor slot on the forum you become a vendor. No back groundchecks needed. No tax id, no proof of any kind.

I didn't realize I was violating MAP pricing, and I pulled it and adjusted my website prices as soon as I found out. I don't do it as you well know I have an issue with people that do it. Why couldn't you actually be a man or at least a professional about the deal and ask me to change it. I didn't realize I was screwing anybody or undercutting you. Simple fact is that my pricing sucks so bad with the companies (CP and Oliver) that I was trying to get it improved so that I could save people some money on the parts and actually make more than 20-50 bucks on a 700 dollar set of pistons and 800 dollar set of rods. But you were too childish to talk to me about it and instead ratted the buy out.

Again you acted like a little child instead of being a respectful business man. THAT is my issue with you right now.

I've known about it since the day I became a vendor...

This is a very good point here. You did become a vendor about one year ago. Not long before that is when you got your Spool turboed Protege. It was about this time that you first started screwing with cars. You never tuned before outside of helping Jermey with the MPI. So in about one year you are know the foremost authority of ECM and tuning. With all of your 12 month long career in automtive tuning behind you now feel you can question someone who has been doing this for years What classes did you take from microtech? I also forgot about the engine program you started? You did after all build an engine last year. You must know all there is to know about engine building by now. I know that you are an electrical engineer by day, most people may not know that. It is was this degree that you can go home at night put on your red cape and become "tunerman". Here to save the day with post after post of theory and theory and not any proof to back them up most of them. What have you done? 260whp out of a fully built Protege with the Microtech. All the months of post after post of engine building and engine tuning and you have made 260whp. Tunerman should do better then that. Maybe a set of match red boots with your cape will help you find more power.

You forgot that I'm a control systems engineer. I design controls and software and closed loop systems for a living. Tuning and ECM's is just an extension of what I do every day. I have a Mechanical Engineering Bachelor of Science with and Electro-Mechanical emphasis. I've been writing software and designign control systems for the last 5 years and have a patent pending on a closed loop control system. I think I know more than a little about computers, controls, and electrical systems. I also understand the technical aspects involved in the internal combustion engine and what I'm trying to do with a tune and exactly why. I understand what I'm doing with my flame fronts, MEP, and various other aspects of the actual physics within the combustion chamber that I'm trying to manipulate with the tune.

No, I certainly don't know everything. But maybe I know a little "something" since I have a 550cc injector equipped standalone that starts cold and runs perfectly and still pulls over 28 mpg on the highway.

This was never about who was a better tuner either and I never made it as such. The simple fact is I've seen the MPI step between cells and make the AFR's jump. I can even remember Jeremy commenting as we kept trying to tweak a trouble spot in the map that "it just didn't have the resolution" to do it...

The only reason I have built motors for sale is because people kept asking to buy a copy of my motor. So I offered it for sale. Customers asked, I provided. Not that hard of a concept now is it. And on top of that, the guy who builds them has been building motors for as long or longer than you. I just spec the parts and outsource the work to his business.

and yep 260 whp at 12-12.5 psi with early spike to 13.1. 29th run in a row with no cool down (no point because of the conditions), on PUMP gas (unlike your dynos at 13), with no actual proper fans, at 101 degrees, with Terry (Spool ITS)'s horrible down pipe that is so plugged up the car can't breath and stalls the turbo at 13.5 psi no matter what. So since you ran a full built motor on race gas with your tuner and made 286 at a good full psi higher with good breathing and better conditions and nowhere near the level of heatsoak then what's your excuse?

Oh... and for the record I've also seen some posts on other forums about cold start issues with your beloved SMT6.


I hoped that my being respectful to you would mitigate that. But obviously you aren't that mature.

It may be me but I am just not feeling the love anymore. Tell you what. Quit your day job and do this everyday like I do. Then when someone comes on like you, that thinks he has all of the answers to everything automotive just like you feel you do. See what you do, lets see what you think. This is business and nothing personal about it. This is the life that some of us have choose, so some play for keeps. I have seen many people/vendors come and go on this forum along with other forums. Remember Perf Works and Wagner? Perf was in jail for some reason and screwed people out of big money. Wagner out of business and he also screwed people out of money. Both of them had all of the answers and knew everything automotive, many people on this forum beleived in them. In the end they could not survive the their own BS.

Yeah, and because it isn't my day job I'm not out to make a buck. I haven't paid myself a dime or anyone else in NSN. I started this business with my brothers because we were all fed up with vendors who weren't helpful, didn't answer questions, and price gouged. My mistake in making it personal before was I thought you were a good enough guy and respectful enough that I let the shots on the standalones slide. And this right now is just business... I'm not taking the BS against standalones anymore.

I will continue to post all the technical detail that you are obviously lacking in knowledge of for the function of the systems out there.

I am sure that some of the members will feel safe now that "Tunerman" is here to save the day for them. Keep in mind that one of these days you will have to prove yourself. How many people would get open heart surgary and let a engineer with 12 months of reading books on hearts pick up the scalpel? We can see that you like to talk the talk, but I walk the walk everyday. Like I post many time before, I just do not play one on TV.

So you go to personal attacks because you can't answer the questions I've posted? Nice.

I'll keep my responses politer

There may be hope for you after all.

Grow up.

I take that back.

Reference the rest of the above.