Twiggy Sticks Install, tuning and results thread
- Thread starter LordWorm
- Start date
- :
- 92 & 16 Meyatas
update dan?? pass inspection?
- :
- 92 & 16 Meyatas
dan? you there?(smash)
hooboy, I am.
I have been procrastinating an epic post.
Basically, twiggy stix were taken out last week.
I had been unable to resolve the P0300 random misfire CEL.
Everytime my car came to rest when in gear I would get a small (totally un-noticable) misfire.
We tuned the adj gears on the twiggys and tried to find a good idle, but the cam profile is too aggressive for my automatic. Not an issue for the guys with a stick I gather, since there is no load on the engine at idle/stops.
Chris (mech) went over EVERYTHING very closely. All the signals were fine. Coilpacks tested, new plugs (2x), new wires, replaced OEM crank pulley, checked sensors, etc. and all said, over 16 hours of his time spent on researching this issue.
In the end, iit just could not get enough vacuum at idle. I think he said it would only pull like 10 (mm/Hg) instead of like 15?
I am now running the FS01 cams with the HLAs...why not the stockers, u may ask?
The head was setup for the twiggys when I had it refreshed and that included snipping the valve stems to get the right tolerances. So we opted not to try the solid lifters.
Now that the CEL is clear, I can finally pass my Mass inspection as long as they look the other way on the tint, lowering and exhaust. Its been expired since may and I have 3 tickets and a court date for them on next Friday the 13th!!!
I am hoping someone might trade me for a set of Integral Stage 1's or somesuch.
I have been procrastinating an epic post.
Basically, twiggy stix were taken out last week.
I had been unable to resolve the P0300 random misfire CEL.
Everytime my car came to rest when in gear I would get a small (totally un-noticable) misfire.
We tuned the adj gears on the twiggys and tried to find a good idle, but the cam profile is too aggressive for my automatic. Not an issue for the guys with a stick I gather, since there is no load on the engine at idle/stops.
Chris (mech) went over EVERYTHING very closely. All the signals were fine. Coilpacks tested, new plugs (2x), new wires, replaced OEM crank pulley, checked sensors, etc. and all said, over 16 hours of his time spent on researching this issue.
In the end, iit just could not get enough vacuum at idle. I think he said it would only pull like 10 (mm/Hg) instead of like 15?
I am now running the FS01 cams with the HLAs...why not the stockers, u may ask?
The head was setup for the twiggys when I had it refreshed and that included snipping the valve stems to get the right tolerances. So we opted not to try the solid lifters.
Now that the CEL is clear, I can finally pass my Mass inspection as long as they look the other way on the tint, lowering and exhaust. Its been expired since may and I have 3 tickets and a court date for them on next Friday the 13th!!!
I am hoping someone might trade me for a set of Integral Stage 1's or somesuch.
Last edited:
^^^ Wow, you could never get the idle right? Man, that stinks. That has me worried about my cams now. My current idle vacuum is around 20 mm Hg but I had planned on raising my idle a bit to get over the misfire (maybe 900 RPM or so). There's a away to adjust the idle according to the FSM. Hopefully that will work. Either way, this is not good news for me.
- :
- 92 & 16 Meyatas
wow dan...what an adventure! good luck on the inspection...i got an earful about my tint, but he looked the other way...let us know how you make out
poor vac is an unfortunate side effect. I've found, with stock exhaust, i get a very hunty idle, as the vac jumps between 20 and 15"hg... with the open exhaust, i can get it to peg at 20"hg and it idles fine...but Crazee D, you run a MAF don't you? not a map sensor? vac isn't going to come into it from a fueling perspective.
Most of the issue is to do with the masses of overlap. Cutting the overlap back will promote a stronger vac signal....that, and the addition of a large amount of timing at idle.
they are a racey/performance camshaft - rough idles are par for the course unfortunately...
in order to run a stable idle i run a 1200rpm idle speed - bare in mind thats on the microtech, which has iffy idle control... i have seen these cams on a stock computer operating with a stable idle down around 700rpm....
anyway, sucks about them not being in the car anymore....
Most of the issue is to do with the masses of overlap. Cutting the overlap back will promote a stronger vac signal....that, and the addition of a large amount of timing at idle.
they are a racey/performance camshaft - rough idles are par for the course unfortunately...
in order to run a stable idle i run a 1200rpm idle speed - bare in mind thats on the microtech, which has iffy idle control... i have seen these cams on a stock computer operating with a stable idle down around 700rpm....
anyway, sucks about them not being in the car anymore....
^^^ I don't mind a slightly rough idle, I just don't want any CEL's! Hopefully there is some happy medium between misfire and idle too high CEL's. The higher idle and lower vacuum will make trouble-shooting more difficult however.
Can anyone confirm the stock idle adjustment? I'm not talking about fiddling with the screw either but the FSM mentions adjusting another screw to fix the idle.
Can anyone confirm the stock idle adjustment? I'm not talking about fiddling with the screw either but the FSM mentions adjusting another screw to fix the idle.
There is the Idle Air Control screw. At idle u could hear mine hissing from 50yds. Inspection here requires an idle below 900rpms.
Don't get me wrong, I was FINE with the lope at idle, the ECU was not.
The idle was less lopey with the gears at +6 and -5 (in/ex) but the ECU still picked up a "misfire" when I would come to a stoplight unless I put it in neutral as I slowed down.
Do you have a auto-tragic too, Magnum? Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate a problem with the CEL.
Everyone that we showed the cam doctor profile to said "not on a street car".
The cams seem to be designed specifically to make power (NA power) up to and beyond 8-8500rpms. Great for drag racing I gather.
Don't get me wrong, I was FINE with the lope at idle, the ECU was not.
The idle was less lopey with the gears at +6 and -5 (in/ex) but the ECU still picked up a "misfire" when I would come to a stoplight unless I put it in neutral as I slowed down.
Do you have a auto-tragic too, Magnum? Otherwise, I wouldn't anticipate a problem with the CEL.
Everyone that we showed the cam doctor profile to said "not on a street car".
The cams seem to be designed specifically to make power (NA power) up to and beyond 8-8500rpms. Great for drag racing I gather.
Nope, 5 speed, here! Oh yeah, you had the N/A cams, didn't you? I've spoken with Sander (sandspeed) in the past regarding these and he seems to be having no issues (aside from the spun rod bearing). IIRC he adjusted the idle the wrong way (by playing with the screw you aren't supposed to) and was pulling about 15 mm Hg of vacuum but I didn't think he had any CEL's. As long as the car runs, and isn't throwing codes, I will be happy.
Unfortunately it's still probably going to be a while before I install mine...
from what i heard from the guy that actually *made* the cam's.... 8000rpm is the practical limit on the overlap provided (and you'll run into head flow limitations, not to mention the mechanical limitations of the motor)... pull the overlap back, and they wont breathe up to 8k. You can open it up further and it'll go nuts...advance the cam's wholesale they'll be even more spastic, but most of the aggression is coming out of the overlap, and the overall advance that they come with. The lift isn't that crazy, and they are not enormous duration cams. They do, however, open and close the valves very fast (very steep ramp rate)
bottom line is they are very aggressive, but are fine for a street car (theres a few of us here in oz who are running them with no issue). I do get that they are a "Bit much" for some people - but the guy who machined the cam's refered to them as what he would consider a "mild street cam". Obviously "mild" means different things to different people but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are a track use only, drag racing cam....thats somewhat of a leap i think.
any chance that the extensive headwork you did was part of the problem? i mean they were designed to be a direct drop in, straight onto the stock shim-over-bucket mechanical lifter setup?
On the subject of the missfire, there have been others who've pulled up "multi-cylinder missfire" codes on the cams for varying reasons...i seem to recall though, that beefing up the coils seemed to help. I'd be interested in knowing who else has actually bothered to install the cams, and whether they get missfire codes (i can't check, because the stock ecu doesn't manage my ignition at all anymore, and shows a missfire code all the time as a result).
I'm not trying to trivialize your problems at all - i know you loved the cams and the turn of power you got over 4k...you've posted about it many times - but i'm just concerned that other people who paid good money for the cams don't all of a sudden think that they are a lemon.
Last edited:
I hear you loud and clear, LW.
I was careful in my statement to not imply that there is anything wrong with them. I LOVE them and they're great. I wanted desperately to find a way to make them work and we tried LOTS of things. Perhaps a standalone and a MTX swap would have done the trick?
The mechanic I am working with is VERY knowledgable and trustworthy.
He is THE goto guy around here for hi-perf. They have a 1700hp Fox body that runs in the street radials classes. Totally insane.
I really think we tried everything we could.
As far as the head work it was a basic job, 3 angle on valves, seats radiused, ports smoothed some. Nothing radical. But it probably does flow faster and maybe contributes to the issue of the low vacuum? It was also decked and had very likely been decked before when it was originally assembled (factory).
I was careful in my statement to not imply that there is anything wrong with them. I LOVE them and they're great. I wanted desperately to find a way to make them work and we tried LOTS of things. Perhaps a standalone and a MTX swap would have done the trick?
The mechanic I am working with is VERY knowledgable and trustworthy.
He is THE goto guy around here for hi-perf. They have a 1700hp Fox body that runs in the street radials classes. Totally insane.
I really think we tried everything we could.
As far as the head work it was a basic job, 3 angle on valves, seats radiused, ports smoothed some. Nothing radical. But it probably does flow faster and maybe contributes to the issue of the low vacuum? It was also decked and had very likely been decked before when it was originally assembled (factory).
stand alone might help....i think the missfire might be ignition related (air doesn't conduct electricity - more air requires a bigger spark to create an ark over the plug....stock coils are s***...etc). Thats just a guess but i'd start beefing the ignition up and go with stand alone....mind you - that ruins you for testing..unless you made the setup somehow reversable (get your ticket, then put the cams and stand alone in, pull it all out next time you need to get a test).
no doubt man...no doubt - just repeating what the cam guy told me...
the low vac is almost certainly the big overlap from what i can work out..
hope you get it sorted, would be a shame to let the cams go... maybe you can get a mild regrind on them to bring them down a little bit and be a little less wild? though i spose thats more money sunk on something thats not really working for you...hrm..
Interesting idea...hmm. Gotta remember to ask about that regrind...
I do have the 1.8 coil pack swap and we tried a few sets of plugs and replaced wires, tested all components, swapped injectors, etc...
It was only when we drove the car around with the scanner that we could see right when the CEL would trigger when we came to a stop. We even swapped the stock crank pulley in the hope of adding some more inertial drag. The CPS was reading very consistent after it was repositioned at a closer tolerance.
I am now going to be aiming for a set up that might help my t3/t4 hybrid/hybrid spool up and give decent torque at low boost.
I have a Swaintech coated housing, Precision turbo assembled Garrett CHRA rebuilt in QC with a turbonetics turbine wheel. Only with my luck can s*** like this happen...
I do have the 1.8 coil pack swap and we tried a few sets of plugs and replaced wires, tested all components, swapped injectors, etc...
It was only when we drove the car around with the scanner that we could see right when the CEL would trigger when we came to a stop. We even swapped the stock crank pulley in the hope of adding some more inertial drag. The CPS was reading very consistent after it was repositioned at a closer tolerance.
I am now going to be aiming for a set up that might help my t3/t4 hybrid/hybrid spool up and give decent torque at low boost.
I have a Swaintech coated housing, Precision turbo assembled Garrett CHRA rebuilt in QC with a turbonetics turbine wheel. Only with my luck can s*** like this happen...
Yup.. sounds like you need management.
My cams are so aggressive that when I zero the maps (I have a little switch that deactivates my piggyback) the car nearly doesn't idle at all.. just go glurgle glurgle glurgle... putt putt putt...
Sad to hear... I'd though the Twigs would be less aggro... but it might be something with your vacuum system? A leak?
My cams are so aggressive that when I zero the maps (I have a little switch that deactivates my piggyback) the car nearly doesn't idle at all.. just go glurgle glurgle glurgle... putt putt putt...
Sad to hear... I'd though the Twigs would be less aggro... but it might be something with your vacuum system? A leak?
you could find also, that the problem is a LACK of air at idle. I found, even with the idle adjustment screw all the way out, i couldn't get any kind of decent (let alone stable) vac signal. Idle was utterly saturated with fuel as a result. This COULD be your problem.
I got around it by cracking the throttle open slightly (the naughty-do-not-touch-adjustment-hex-bolt-and-lock-nut thingy beside the idle adjust screw), then reset my throttle position sensor to zero on the microtech. One way to check if this is a possible solution for you is to let it idle with the poor vac, then open the throttle slightly (say, 2%) and see if the vac improves. If this is the case, i'd suggest you need to open the throttle, or bore out the bypass valve to let more air through at idle. Or you can drill a small hole in your throttle plate.
Opening the throttle may not be an option for you with the stock ecu though, unless there is some way of calibrating the tps 0% point (there would have to be, but god knows what it is).
You're dead on about the ramp rate...the duration isn't that crazy. What is insane is the speed at which the damn things open....you get alot more effective valve open area, for a lot more of the rotation than you would otherwise get.
Once the IAS is all the way out you can adjust the TAS and use a multimeter, engine management computer or just a multimeter to monitor the adjustments to the TAS. This might just confuse your PCM though. Make sure you note the original voltage at 0% TPS, or at least mark the screw so you can return it to the original position.
Anyone know a safe way to plug the hole I drilled in my throttle plate, now that I don't have the Twiggies anymore? Maybe a rivet?
Oh, and I really liked the big cams and setup I had, it was sooo responsive. The engine feels dull and lifeless in comparison now. But the cams were just too loud for my circumstances and aggravated other problems the car already has.
Last edited:
wouldn't rivet - may come out... easiest way would be to go pick up a throttle from your local junk yard...shouldn't be too hard to find one....either pinch the plate, or use the whole throttle. I believe the 626 throttle has a linear opening too - not the stepped opening the 323 has (which is so annoying, when my foot is halfway down, i want half throttle, not 20%!!!!!)
on the subject of the cam's - it seems noone was expecting the brutality haha... the profiles were revised vs andrew's originals, to correct a few issues he had, and because his originals were ground mazda blanks which meant things needed to be compromised. These "mark 2" twiggy cams appear to be built for drivers cars - not the kind of thing that makes wives (and law makers) happy. I've never heard anyone gripe about the lack of power - only about the increased noise
.What will be interesting is when the turbo guys FINALLY get us some feedback on what these things do on a turbo motor. To quote Andrew, who was quoting the cam manufacturer "This profile is a mild cam on an NA motor - on a boosted engine its a race cam". Expect big numbers for relatively small boost!
hey crazee: anyway you can use your small cams to get you buy inspection, then put in a mil killer and run the twiggies once you have your emmissions ticket?
Last edited:
