Truth about K-Sports?

[TheMAN]

definately not the best out there but better than the illuminas... I'm very happy with my mazdaspeed adjustables and the mazdaspeed eibach spring setup... for the price, the performance probably bests a lot of the $1500 coil over setups available

of course that's just my testimony, nothing is definitive without putting those components on the dyno... and yes, I autocrossed with them and did kick some serious ass

 

[jmv]

so you're saying your setup ran you $1500, edwin?? I suppose thats not TOO crazy, but probably not something i'll be able to afford anytime soon.

 

[Velocifero]

on a different note, I would definately like to see how the following perform:
stock MP3
stock MSP
tokico HP
tokico illumina
JDM mazdaspeed a-spec adjustable (by tokico & KYB)... the only ones in this list which I have advertised rates on, which would be interesting to see on a dyno

Are you curious if the HPs ordered straight from Tokico or distributer are different than those installed by Mazda?

 

[jmv]

well we do know that at least the rear spring perch is different. I thought i recalled reading somewhere that they made slight adjustments to the strut, but i could be wrong.

 

[16902]

on a different note, I would definately like to see how the following perform:
stock MP3
stock MSP
tokico HP
tokico illumina
JDM mazdaspeed a-spec adjustable (by tokico & KYB)... the only ones in this list which I have advertised rates on, which would be interesting to see on a dyno

I would definitely like to see this.

Thanks for the info, Jeff. I thought I was reading the graph right but I wasn't sure until you actually came out and confirmed it.

 

[TheMAN]

Are you curious if the HPs ordered straight from Tokico or distributer are different than those installed by Mazda?

they're definately different

 

[Velocifero]

they're definately different

yeah i was reading about the different valving mazda did for the msp etc.

 

[Shadow102]

These are what my off the shelf Koni's looked like. It's not to bad, i've seen better.



Wonder why the ride is stiff on Ksports? The shocks are the problem not the spring.

*drool* i wish i could get konis for the MSP for a decent price to just bolt on. I wish koni made them. It just sucks that besides a custom route the only suspension worth a damn that is available to the average consumer are the AWR bilstein setup.

I do have to same i have a set of k-sports and love them. I dont have much to compare against but the car feels alot better with them over the stock MSP stuff. The ride height just felt way too high and unstable compared to the k-sport setup i am running now

 

[thepepperman]

well we do know that at least the rear spring perch is different. I thought i recalled reading somewhere that they made slight adjustments to the strut, but i could be wrong.

Do you have a link/reference for this? I remember reading about it a long time ago but I can't find a definitive answer on it. I think its the reason putting a set of MSP springs on a P5 with stock or non-MSP tokicos leads to a rearward rake in the car's height. I want to prove my theory!

 

[ApexUMS]

more set ups please.............

I track my car on k-sports, my boss tracks his evo on ksports, I have seen a ksport equiped car clean up here @ every major time attack held no suspenion problems

 

[Shadow102]

Wow, are you really saying this? The Proof isn't enough? When a car wins on k-sports... it isn't the shocks/springs that are doing it and i'm 99.9% sure of it.

way better than stock though...granted they arent bilsteins or konis (i so wish there was an affordable set for the MSP) but they are a nice improvement and dropped alot of time off my auto-x times

 

[phoenixR34]

Wow, are you really saying this? The Proof isn't enough? When a car wins on k-sports... it isn't the shocks/springs that are doing it and i'm 99.9% sure of it.

And the same car went just as fast (1:05.049 at PIR to be exact) on KSports, as it did on Cusco Zero 2Rs and Tein RA's. Check that time vs. the Koni Cup qualifying times and you'll see KSport, or anyone for that matter isn't deserving of a thread like this.

So now let's compare two Moton triple adjustables, retail for close to $2000 *each* shock. These are two rear shocks, new out of the box for the same car. Sorry for the Excel charts, my shock dyno guy doesn't give me electronic data.

Rebound:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/phoenixR34/motonrebound.jpg

Compression:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/phoenixR34/motoncomp.jpg

Not exactly the same either. I'm not claiming to be a shock expert, but nearly 2000 newtons of rebound difference at some speeds. Now are you going to start claiming Motons are crap too?

I have two Koni DAs with light use that I'll take off the car and dyno here soon.

My gripes with threads like this:

1. Talk to engineers from Bilstein, Moton, KYB; engineers from car companies and so on, and they'll all say more or less the same thing: "Two shocks that look exactly the same on a dyno plot, can feel totally different on the car. Tune a car by feel, not what you see on a shock dyno graph."

Everyone I've talked to about shock dyno charts (since they're so popular these days), says 99% of the time a dyno plot is used to determine the shock is working properly, range of adjustment or that something isn't horribly wrong. Data is taken for reference, but tuning is done based on the feel from driving the car.

2. Shock companies coming on the internet and ripping each other apart with data that *no one* knows how to f-ing read. You see it on here, honda-tech, rr-ax, freshalloy and more. Perhaps you (tri-point) can shed some light on this, but how is anyone supposed to be able to relate to a shock graph without owning a dyno themselves and going through an insane trial and error process?

example: Dyno a set of shocks. Put them on the car, buzz off 20-30 laps (or be a damn good evaluator on the street), make a judgement. Change the shock tuning, dyno it, retest on the track/street.. go through that process of tuning, dyno testing, evaluating and repeat for 20 years. And be sure to put fresh, zero-tolerance tires on for each test as well, because the performance of race tires can vary seconds though their life cycle. Do all that and *then* maybe I would believe what the person is saying.

You have many curves and graphs to look at on a race car. And I say race car, because who in their right mind would spend 10 seconds worrying about a shock dyno curve for their daily commuter?? Anyways, you have dyno curves, camber curves, steering effort curves, shock dyno curves.. shock dyno curves have to be perhaps the most complex and least understandable graphs on Earth. So why all the emphasis?

3. On my local track I probably have a couple thousand laps over the last ten years... on my current track car I've tried the Tein HE, Tein RA, Cusco Zero 2R, KSport Kontrol Pro, GAB, Tein Flex and now the KSport GT Pro. I won't deny for a second that all shocks felt different.. some had more rebound, some were too soft, some had way too much compression... it's fairly easy to compare when I have a thousand laps of comparison data. But the one truth in all this: Lap times *barely* varied. Sure, I had to change springs on some and adjust the shocks, but with one exception (RA), there was never more than a tenth or two difference between any of the shock setups.

So if that doesn't matter, what does? Ride comfort? If that's your worry then perhaps we should all be running OEM Toyota shocks.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

And the same car went just as fast (1:05.049 at PIR to be exact) on KSports, as it did on Cusco Zero 2Rs and Tein RA's. Check that time vs. the Koni Cup qualifying times and you'll see KSport, or anyone for that matter isn't deserving of a thread like this.

Proof IS Proof, you can't deny the facts of what you see here.

Who says cusco zeros or teins are any better than Ksports?

So now let's compare two Moton triple adjustables, retail for close to $2000 *each* shock. These are two rear shocks, new out of the box for the same car. Sorry for the Excel charts, my shock dyno guy doesn't give me electronic data.

What kind of dyno is he using if he can't give you electronic data? Is it a mechanical dyno? If if it is.. what better way to dyno a $2,000.00shock with a pencil on seperate sheets?

Not exactly the same either. I'm not claiming to be a shock expert, but nearly 2000 newtons of rebound difference at some speeds. Now are you going to start claiming Motons are crap too?

For $2000.00/shock, I would expect WAY more than that and so would anyone that is going to spend $2000.00/shock. Wouldn't you?

1. Talk to engineers from Bilstein, Moton, KYB; engineers from car companies and so on, and they'll all say more or less the same thing: "Two shocks that look exactly the same on a dyno plot, can feel totally different on the car. Tune a car by feel, not what you see on a shock dyno graph."

What does this have anything to do with shock matching? This is about the characteristics of the shock.

I.E. A Koni DA twin tube shock puts out X amount of force, but you have have a Koni 2812 shock put out the same amount of force and act completely different. The 2812's have more low speed control and responds as soon as theres movement in the piston as opposed to the Koni DA twin tube shocks which could take an inch of movement before it starts dampening.

Everyone I've talked to about shock dyno charts (since they're so popular these days), says 99% of the time a dyno plot is used to determine the shock is working properly, range of adjustment or that something isn't horribly wrong. Data is taken for reference, but tuning is done based on the feel from driving the car.

If you were to show someone these graphs, any who knows about shocks would tell you that there is somethign wrong PERIOD.

You have many curves and graphs to look at on a race car. And I say race car, because who in their right mind would spend 10 seconds worrying about a shock dyno curve for their daily commuter??

People in Stock class, wether its auto-x or road racing have spent thousands of dollars on shocks, wether its from a Z06 vette to a RX-8. It all comes down to your budget, how competitive you want to be and yes they still care about the 10 seconds it takes to dyno the shock.

3. On my local track I probably have a couple thousand laps over the last ten years... on my current track car I've tried the Tein HE, Tein RA, Cusco Zero 2R, KSport Kontrol Pro, GAB, Tein Flex and now the KSport GT Pro. I won't deny for a second that all shocks felt different.. some had more rebound, some were too soft, some had way too much compression... it's fairly easy to compare when I have a thousand laps of comparison data. But the one truth in all this: Lap times *barely* varied. Sure, I had to change springs on some and adjust the shocks, but with one exception (RA), there was never more than a tenth or two difference between any of the shock setups.

I don't want to rain on your parade but I believe most of the stuff that you have used isn't really on PAR with a Koni, Bilstein, Moton, Sachs, JRZ, Penskes and etc...

But who am I to say what works and doesn't work. I'm just here to give the facts about the Ksports and what I found interesting.

 

[phoenixR34]

Who says cusco zeros or teins are any better than Ksports?

No one said that. I just don't see any specific threads from you calling out any other shock manufacturer. You made a post discrediting someone because two of their shocks don't have the exact same values. I posted up a set of industry leading Motons that don't match either, which supports the idea that perhaps not every shock in the world is exactly the same, and you totally ignore it. Why not expand on it instead of just continue to bash everyone?

What kind of dyno is he using if he can't give you electronic data? Is it a mechanical dyno? If if it is.. what better way to dyno a $2,000.00shock with a pencil on seperate sheets?

It's an MTS shock dyno.. I don't dyno shocks for a living so I couldn't tell you if it's good or not, I just got paper sheets with results. I can scan them if you'd like.

For $2000.00/shock, I would expect WAY more than that and so would anyone that is going to spend $2000.00/shock. Wouldn't you?

I don't know what I should expect. For $2,000 a shock and a company such as Moton, or even Penske or Ohlins, that I can trust them to give me the right parts. Everytime I'm at a Grand Am/ALMS event I see a grid full of 996s, GTOs and such on Motons.. seems like they're the pinnacle as far as we know it.

People in Stock class, wether its auto-x or road racing have spent thousands of dollars on shocks, wether its from a Z06 vette to a RX-8. It all comes down to your budget, how competitive you want to be and yes they still care about the 10 seconds it takes to dyno the shock.

I've spent plenty of time in Stock Solo2 (B Stock) so I know what you mean.. but KSport (just an example) coilovers aren't even legal for stock, so it's a mute point. My point is that I'm willing to bet 90% of "coilover" buyers don't track their cars or aren't up to the level where they could feel 25 newtons difference from shock to shock.. just a hunch.

I don't want to rain on your parade but I believe most of the stuff that you have used isn't really on PAR with a Koni, Bilstein, Moton, Sachs, JRZ, Penskes and etc...

Well of course not. Call Cusco today and they'll tell you their coilovers aren't as nice as JRZs or Penskes. You're expecting a $900 set of shocks to perform the same as a $9,000 set of shocks. You shouldn't expect your Mazda3 to perform like a BMW either.

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

No one said that. I just don't see any specific threads from you calling out any other shock manufacturer. You made a post discrediting someone because two of their shocks don't have the exact same values. I posted up a set of industry leading Motons that don't match either, which supports the idea that perhaps not every shock in the world is exactly the same, and you totally ignore it. Why not expand on it instead of just continue to bash everyone?

These were shocks that WE dyno'd in house and they do not BELONG to any customer. It's 4 shocks which came new in a box.

I don't know what your dyno testing shows! I don't even see a bump and a rebound force. I don't see a min or max, it really doesn't tell me much! Also i'm not saying that every set will match even from these leading shock manufactures. But I would imagine they should be close to 10%. In Ksports case... we are way over that, to the point where you could have suspension issues.

It's an MTS shock dyno.. I don't dyno shocks for a living so I couldn't tell you if it's good or not, I just got paper sheets with results. I can scan them if you'd like.

Paper sheets? Please put it on a computer dyno and the margain of error i'm sure will be a lot less.

I've spent plenty of time in Stock Solo2 (B Stock) so I know what you mean.. but KSport (just an example) coilovers aren't even legal for stock, so it's a mute point. My point is that I'm willing to bet 90% of "coilover" buyers don't track their cars or aren't up to the level where they could feel 25 newtons difference from shock to shock.. just a hunch.

I agree, for street use I don't think you would even notice a difference except for comfort.

But if a shock is bad enough the car regardless will be horrible and you will feel it on more technical corners. In this case if you were to put these ksports on similar settings, you will feel it in a slalaam, one side of the car would loose traction easier than the other side. It would not be predictable, like how a properly setup car should be.

And thank you for summarizing my thoughts for me. Why are you even bothering to compare a $8,000 set of Motons or JRZs, so a $900 set of KSports, Teins or Cuscos? It's like me coming on here and telling everyone a BMW 335i is better than a Mazda3.

Why do you concentrate on the $8000.00 shocks. Any Koni OTS shocks, Bilstein OTS, the more affordable suspension will be pretty much better all around.

I think it comes down to the simple fact that when an average customer wants suspension, they'll shell out $900 for a set of Teins, Cuscos or Ksports over some Koni DAs anyday of the week, and you're bitter about it. This whole thread is really unfortunate for Koni, as they have a great reputation in motorsports and a huge fan base, yet guys like you come on here and try and talk all technical, talk s*** about other companies to lure people back, and in turn give Koni a bad rep. I'm not sitting on here telling everyone how I had to get my Koni DAs rebuilt twice because they leak out of the tops, don't have click adjustments how it's a pain in the ass to move that snap ring to change ride height etc.. let it go.

I didn't realize that showing the truth is talking s*** when it's a fact? I didn't say to buy Koni's, I know Koni's are very expensive because the Proteges have to be custom made. People that want a good suspension will know that Ksports are probably not the way to go because of the quality control. As long as they know that, I'm fine and that was my intentions.

 

[Shadow102]

so in a related question has anyone ever contacted koni about making protege specific shocks...i mean the chassis seems pretty popular for lower end racing and was even a good chassis for a while in speed world touring.

 

[AznXstazy]

i hear that the megan racing coilovers were nice on the 240... i think these were from a 240. do you have a dyno for them? i heard they are nice quality. not to jack thread.

 

[Shadow102]

i hear that the megan racing coilovers were nice on the 240... i think these were from a 240. do you have a dyno for them? i heard they are nice quality. not to jack thread.

megan racing coilovers will fall into the same catagory as the k-sports, teins, ect. i have installed them on a 240 and driven them...yes they are an improvment over stock and very helpful if you do any kind of amateur racing but once again they are not the high dollar shocks

 

[phoenixR34]

These were shocks that WE dyno'd in house and they do not BELONG to any customer. It's 4 shocks which came new in a box.

I don't know what your dyno testing shows! I don't even see a bump and a rebound force. I don't see a min or max, it really doesn't tell me much! Also i'm not saying that every set will match even from these leading shock manufactures. But I would imagine they should be close to 10%. In Ksports case... we are way over that, to the point where you could have suspension issues.

Maybe I'll just scan the sheet.. and by sheet I mean a "print out". I don't have the software or a way to view the electronic data, so I just had them print the results out and I graphed the values taken from the table in Excel. There's a Force vs. Displacement graph, Peak Force vs. Peak Vel. graph, tables, other numbers and about 50 other things I don't fully understand.

What do you think about the variance with the Motons? I don't see any threads titled "The truth about Motons"

Why do you concentrate on the $8000.00 shocks. Any Koni OTS shocks, Bilstein OTS, the more affordable suspension will be pretty much better all around.

Now i can't say this is the answer, but just my guess.. Buy some Teins for $900 and you get the complete package - springs, collars, camber plates, mounts etc. Buy Koni DAs, or even SA and you spent 130-220 a shock.. then you need coilover sleeves, springs, upper mounts, camber plates etc., and more often than not it ends up costing more. Then of course in my case I had to send off my Konis (350Z) to get shortened etc.. If you spend $800-1000 on shocks alone, vs $800 for a complete setup, of course there will be a difference in quality. I'm still interested in dyno testing my Koni DA's to see what/if there is a difference.

I didn't realize that showing the truth is talking s*** when it's a fact? I didn't say to buy Koni's, I know Koni's are very expensive because the Proteges have to be custom made.

I went back and deleted that last paragraph - you must have replied before it went through.. I didn't want to deliberately attack you/anyone as that won't accomplish much. It's just apparent by this thread you're attacking KSport for having two shocks that don't match perfectly.. If you wanted to show that Koni is the best, you could have just said "Here's us, compared to five other brands, blah blah."

 

[Jeff@Tri-Point]

Maybe I'll just scan the sheet.. and by sheet I mean a "print out". I don't have the software or a way to view the electronic data, so I just had them print the results out and I graphed the values taken from the table in Excel. There's a Force vs. Displacement graph, Peak Force vs. Peak Vel. graph, tables, other numbers and about 50 other things I don't fully understand.

What do you think about the variance with the Motons? I don't see any threads titled "The truth about Motons"

You should just scan the print out because the data you have provided shows nothing besides just curves. We don't even know if these are new or used.

Now i can't say this is the answer, but just my guess.. Buy some Teins for $900 and you get the complete package - springs, collars, camber plates, mounts etc. Buy Koni DAs, or even SA and you spent 130-220 a shock.. then you need coilover sleeves, springs, upper mounts, camber plates etc., and more often than not it ends up costing more. Then of course in my case I had to send off my Konis (350Z) to get shortened etc.. If you spend $800-1000 on shocks alone, vs $800 for a complete setup, of course there will be a difference in quality. I'm still interested in dyno testing my Koni DA's to see what/if there is a difference.

I've been autocrossing for about 5 months and I've met maybe 15 people within STX & STU class. 4 of the people have switched from "brand names" shocks like Tein into Koni's and said they are 100x better. Even though it cost them 1k more, if they could redo it, they would go straight for Koni's. Granted Koni's might be the shock for them or that car, it makes a strong statement when times are improved dramatically (in most cases) and the car to them "feels better". I didn't persaude them, I didn't sell them on it or even talk to them about it. Direct customer feedback.

Bottom line is Koni shocks have results with national champ winners.

Jeff Barco's Car - STX WRX
Jason Rhoades - STS 240SX
Ken Montonishi - STS Civic
Gary Thomason - SM2 Corvette
Erik Strelniks - SM2 RX-7
Peter Raymond - C-Stock Miata

These were shocks that we have built. As you know, these classes are highly competitive and not any Joe Smoe can win or "set a track record"

It's just apparent by this thread you're attacking KSport for having two shocks that don't match perfectly.. If you wanted to show that Koni is the best, you could have just said "Here's us, compared to five other brands, blah blah."

Don't match perfectly? Even if you were to put one shock on full stiff and one shock on full soft, one of the shock is not even CLOSE to matching and they are BRAND NEW.