Yes they do, however the AWR endlinks are not long enough for a resonably lowered car, so make sure your endlinks are long enough to put your bar in the correct arc. I broke one of my AWR tabs off the rear strut.
Britt
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STS Suspension setup questions
- Thread starter benjpi
- Start date
Yes they do, however the AWR endlinks are not long enough for a resonably lowered car, so make sure your endlinks are long enough to put your bar in the correct arc. I broke one of my AWR tabs off the rear strut.
Britt
benjpi,
just curious as to what your toe/camber is.
I always found that toe out on the front was a good thing.
Also, I'm not sure if you are adjusting your camber when you get to the event or not, but adjusting the camber also changes your Toe alignment (more negative camber=more toe in).
Just something to think about cause I've seen a lot of people drive to the event with 0 camber so they don't wear out the tires, and then make the camber adjustment at the event , but don't realize it is adding negative toe also.
just curious as to what your toe/camber is.
I always found that toe out on the front was a good thing.
Also, I'm not sure if you are adjusting your camber when you get to the event or not, but adjusting the camber also changes your Toe alignment (more negative camber=more toe in).
Just something to think about cause I've seen a lot of people drive to the event with 0 camber so they don't wear out the tires, and then make the camber adjustment at the event , but don't realize it is adding negative toe also.
Jason, I run about 1/8" total toe out up front. I havent messed with the back other than the crash bolts for the camber.
I put the AWR bar on today. To be honest, a bit of a disappoinment. To wit:
The torsional stiffness goes up with the 4th power of the diameter, so I went from a 19mm (3/4") Racing Beat bar to a 22mm ( 7/8" ) AWR bar. In theory their should have been an 85% increase in torsional stiffness. BUT the AWR bar has much longer 'legs' on it. I measured the arm length of the RB bar ab about 4.5", but the AWR bar was about 10". So the lever arm of the AWR bar is closer to (if not over) 9 in, whereas the the RB bar has a length of about 4.5".
So, by changing diameter I gained 85% in torsional stiffness, but sacraficed it all in the length of the lever arm, which is about twice the length of the RB bar on the back side of the AWR bar. AWR bar at 10.5" lever length is about equal to RB bar at 4.5" lever length.
Really, I think there's some gain in stiffness since the turning bearings on the rear bar are so far from the suspension (hence the 'clunk fix'), but I was underwhelmed by the handling difference. There was no "massive" difference in understeer, maybe a little change but not that much. I'll try again once I reset the adjusters to the inside of the curve of the ARW bar. At least then I can get a real difference in torsional stiffness. So, I need to cut the INSIDE two clamp bolts, retap the clamp mount, and move the mount to the other side of the sway bar curve.
I'm still pissed about the AWR adjustable end links: unless you live in Arizona they'll be useless in about a year. I'm not blaming the seller of the used bar (buyer beware) but after searching the forum I've seen the corrosion and noise issues are nothing new.
Every damn upgrade turns into a project.
I put the AWR bar on today. To be honest, a bit of a disappoinment. To wit:
The torsional stiffness goes up with the 4th power of the diameter, so I went from a 19mm (3/4") Racing Beat bar to a 22mm ( 7/8" ) AWR bar. In theory their should have been an 85% increase in torsional stiffness. BUT the AWR bar has much longer 'legs' on it. I measured the arm length of the RB bar ab about 4.5", but the AWR bar was about 10". So the lever arm of the AWR bar is closer to (if not over) 9 in, whereas the the RB bar has a length of about 4.5".
So, by changing diameter I gained 85% in torsional stiffness, but sacraficed it all in the length of the lever arm, which is about twice the length of the RB bar on the back side of the AWR bar. AWR bar at 10.5" lever length is about equal to RB bar at 4.5" lever length.
Really, I think there's some gain in stiffness since the turning bearings on the rear bar are so far from the suspension (hence the 'clunk fix'), but I was underwhelmed by the handling difference. There was no "massive" difference in understeer, maybe a little change but not that much. I'll try again once I reset the adjusters to the inside of the curve of the ARW bar. At least then I can get a real difference in torsional stiffness. So, I need to cut the INSIDE two clamp bolts, retap the clamp mount, and move the mount to the other side of the sway bar curve.
I'm still pissed about the AWR adjustable end links: unless you live in Arizona they'll be useless in about a year. I'm not blaming the seller of the used bar (buyer beware) but after searching the forum I've seen the corrosion and noise issues are nothing new.
Every damn upgrade turns into a project.
I'm thinking if you do have some real handling problems, and not just a case of overdriving (no offense intended), the real problem may be your shocks/springs or old tires. Given the preformance of the Tokicos on a stock Mazdaspeed, they should work pretty good. I woulnd't expect any night and day differences by going to the AWR bar over the progress bar. The real difference will be when you get some real spring rates. Your current spring rates are not that much stiffer than stock.
I'm tellin ya, 450 front, 600 rear- it will work...just don't know if it will work with Tokicos. Also, I have an LSD in my car too, so that makes the car a little more pushy on throttle.
Before I started my FSP build I was racing my car in STS with 350F, 450R (with Bilstein Shocks)- and that was a pretty good balance.
Oh, and the other thing you may try is raising the ride height on the front. Everytime I have tried to lower the front "as low as it will go", I have always had a bit of a push problem. It may have been a coincidence, but there may be some kind of suspension geometry issue with lowering the car too far. Especially if your shocks are not shortened- you'll just be riding on the bumpstops.
I typically try to setup my ride height (when measured at the jacking spots) .5" to 1" higher in the back.
Long story short, here's what I would do:
1) make sure tires are still in good shape and shocks aren't blown
2) raise ride height 1" and see if that makes a difference
3) look into new spring rates
4) look into getting your shocks shortend
I'm tellin ya, 450 front, 600 rear- it will work...just don't know if it will work with Tokicos. Also, I have an LSD in my car too, so that makes the car a little more pushy on throttle.
Before I started my FSP build I was racing my car in STS with 350F, 450R (with Bilstein Shocks)- and that was a pretty good balance.
Oh, and the other thing you may try is raising the ride height on the front. Everytime I have tried to lower the front "as low as it will go", I have always had a bit of a push problem. It may have been a coincidence, but there may be some kind of suspension geometry issue with lowering the car too far. Especially if your shocks are not shortened- you'll just be riding on the bumpstops.
I typically try to setup my ride height (when measured at the jacking spots) .5" to 1" higher in the back.
Long story short, here's what I would do:
1) make sure tires are still in good shape and shocks aren't blown
2) raise ride height 1" and see if that makes a difference
3) look into new spring rates
4) look into getting your shocks shortend
Regarding swaybars, I know the owner of Saner Performance Fabrication pretty well. He makes a Ford Focus 15/16" 3-way rear bar that I have sold to a number of racers on Focaljet.com., including Lorin Muellers FSP National trophy winner (I got rid of my Focus for a Mazda6 driver, and now have a ZX2 being prepped for STS--which explains my being here) ...he's also finishing up a prototype for a 3-way 7/8" front bar for the Focus.
His work is beautiful and is very fairly priced, but he is slow on turn-around. That said, if you get him a bar to use as a template, he can bend up anything you want.
PM me if you'd like contact info. I'll be happy to help.
His work is beautiful and is very fairly priced, but he is slow on turn-around. That said, if you get him a bar to use as a template, he can bend up anything you want.
PM me if you'd like contact info. I'll be happy to help.
Jason, my impressions regarding oversteer / understeer were just abandoned parking lot stuff: I was basically skidpad driving to see which end slid first. It wasn't any event, so I didn't really have the opportunity to overdrive.
The tires are about shot already, but new ones are on their way.
I've got a set of 336# springs that I'd like to try in the back, but I'm wary of blowing the shocks (Tok's) based on all the feedback here. None of them are currently blown, with 350 F and 250 R now.
Thanks for the info on the custom bar, but I don't think I need to go there yet. I'll move the clamp to the other side of the bend and see if that helps.
The tires are about shot already, but new ones are on their way.
I've got a set of 336# springs that I'd like to try in the back, but I'm wary of blowing the shocks (Tok's) based on all the feedback here. None of them are currently blown, with 350 F and 250 R now.
Thanks for the info on the custom bar, but I don't think I need to go there yet. I'll move the clamp to the other side of the bend and see if that helps.
Yes, I have some negative camber in the rear, but no where near as much as the front. My thinking at the time was that it would be better to maximize the available traction at each end of the car. I've gotten a lot of suggestions to loosen up the rear of the car with toe out or camber changes, but it seems counter-intuitive to purposefully reduce grip. I mean, if I can increase front grip, that seems like a better approach.
I picked up the 336# springs, now I just need the spare time fairy to whizz by and grant me time for installation...
I picked up the 336# springs, now I just need the spare time fairy to whizz by and grant me time for installation...
now I just need the spare time fairy to whizz by and grant me time for installation...
LOL. She's a real be-otch--never comes around anymore either (but dont tell her I said that...I still have alot to do on my car before the snow melts...).
Yes, I have some negative camber in the rear, but no where near as much as the front. My thinking at the time was that it would be better to maximize the available traction at each end of the car. I've gotten a lot of suggestions to loosen up the rear of the car with toe out or camber changes, but it seems counter-intuitive to purposefully reduce grip. I mean, if I can increase front grip, that seems like a better approach.
I picked up the 336# springs, now I just need the spare time fairy to whizz by and grant me time for installation...
it is a better approach, but you seem to be looking for a way to balance out the handling of the car. reducing rear grip is one method. keep in mind that 3/5 of the car's weight is over those front tires, so it's going to be tough to increase the front grip enough (w/in STS rules) to balance out the car.
in the end, whatever is fastest is what matters.
Don't think of it as reducing grip. Think of it as putting the available grip where it is most effective (changing the balance). If the car is pushing you have to either increase the front grip or reduce the rear grip. Eitherway you move the available grip to where it is needed. Having maximum grip at both ends is only good for one thing...steady state cornering. That is a rare occurence at an Auto-x. Most things are transitions either from side to side or gas/brake modulations. What most people consider loose is really not very loose at all in autoX world. In a FWD car the rear end needs to have some give to it. You really need to be able to chop the throttle mid-corner and feel the car rotate. If you can't then take some grip away from the rear. Once you get the feel of it and nail your entry speeds/angles you can use the throttle/brakes to steer the rear of the car. It's like having 4-wheel steering.
The best way I can describe how my car was always setup is this....
My first run...I would always nearly spin or completely spin my car just due to cold tires. Once the tires were warm the car was perfect. If you can't spin it on cold tires you have some more adjustments to make.
My first run...I would always nearly spin or completely spin my car just due to cold tires. Once the tires were warm the car was perfect. If you can't spin it on cold tires you have some more adjustments to make.
My first run...I would always nearly spin or completely spin my car
That's kind of funny, but I know what you mean. I think I understand how having the car a bit loose in back would help with transitions, but I'd still like to make a few more tries at increasing front grip before I loosen it up.
It's been a few years since I was in engineering school, but I pulled down the books to check the deflections for the sway bar for both the 3/4" bar and the 7/8" bar. With the rotating lever arm length being about doubled on the AWR bar, the net result was about a 9% increase in roll rate. The bar actually LOST rate in direct torsion, but gained it back from bending. Go figger.
Anyway, after driving it for a few days, it is noticeably better (in that I can notice a slight difference).
Still waiting for the spare time fairy to put the rear springs in...
I've got a Koni 8610 question for anyone who might know. Will they support 350 lb springs off-the-shelf? I've read the Tri-point 8611 thread and saw that those had been revalved, but I think it was done for really high rates (500F/600R?). The PA roads around Philly won't support those rates (the car already rides like a bread truck..), so I was hoping to get closer to the site recommendations of about 350F/400R.
I've got enough fab skills & contacts that I can build the bodies myself, but I've got no resources for a revalve.
I've got enough fab skills & contacts that I can build the bodies myself, but I've got no resources for a revalve.
Don't know that this will help, but I ran OTS Koni Yellows on my STS Focus w/ H&R Race Springs: (2”/1.7”) F: 325 lb/in R: 375 lb/in. Had no ill efects...and the car did not ever feel under-damped (never ran full-stiff either).
Well, I spent another day screwing with the AWR bar, and after another cut/rethread session I got the clamps on the other side of the curve, so the links are between the two lateral arms. At long last, I've acheived balance. The car still starts with just slight understeer, but can be made to go into oversteer by just lifting the throttle.
The only "problem" is that it clanks like 1850's freight train in the new position. I'm thinking about taking some OEM links, cutting them up & adding a center stiffener / threaded section, and putting them back on the AWR bar. At least then I get grease seals on the joints. I'll need a single-sided clamp for the bar too.
Thanks for the info on the Koni yellows.
Also, for anyone who might need to know, K-sport springs do NOT fit on ground control perches. They're close, but they don't quite fit. I could have forced them on (they really are that close) but I didn't want to force anything.
The only "problem" is that it clanks like 1850's freight train in the new position. I'm thinking about taking some OEM links, cutting them up & adding a center stiffener / threaded section, and putting them back on the AWR bar. At least then I get grease seals on the joints. I'll need a single-sided clamp for the bar too.
Thanks for the info on the Koni yellows.
Also, for anyone who might need to know, K-sport springs do NOT fit on ground control perches. They're close, but they don't quite fit. I could have forced them on (they really are that close) but I didn't want to force anything.
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