STS Build - 2003 Protege LX

[moxnix]

Corey runs STU now.
What happened with that first place STS guy? It seems odd that he only has one run listed and is 1 second ahead of Cy while driving a 99 civic.

With good shock valving high springs rates are not that bad. With bad shock valving they suck.

One thing to do is get a better driver to drive your car and ride along with him if you can or just watch if you can't. See where he is going faster than you, see how the braking points differ, see the distances from the cones, see the turn in points.

Have you taken any AutoX schools? they can really help your driving.

Moxnix - Another Saturday running fool.

 

[benjpi]

The Philly SCCA website seems to be saying that the STS first place results are wrong, so I'm taking that as I've got 8th, not 9th. Whoopee. If that's the case, then Cy won. I was cornerworking with Mike Louie before we ran the second heat, so I knew ahead of time that I wasn't going to beat him either.

I haven't done any schools yet, but I'm thinking about it. I really have to limit my overall time commitment; I get in lots of personal trouble when I'm away racing for too long. I've got three kids (two of which are 3-year old twins) & both my wife & I work. Time away from the house is traded like gold boullion in my household: I might just have to rely on experience & getting instuctor ride-alongs.

What's a CG Lock?

 

[Katya4me]

The Philly SCCA website seems to be saying that the STS first place results are wrong, so I'm taking that as I've got 8th, not 9th. Whoopee. If that's the case, then Cy won. I was cornerworking with Mike Louie before we ran the second heat, so I knew ahead of time that I wasn't going to beat him either.

I haven't done any schools yet, but I'm thinking about it. I really have to limit my overall time commitment; I get in lots of personal trouble when I'm away racing for too long. I've got three kids (two of which are 3-year old twins) & both my wife & I work. Time away from the house is traded like gold boullion in my household: I might just have to rely on experience & getting instuctor ride-alongs.

What's a CG Lock?

Well, if you do decide to take a school, DC SCCA puts on some good ones and I think Philly's is pretty good too.

http://www.cg-lock.com/

 

[dmitrik4]

Ben, what tires are you running? i think i saw your car at the event. i ran my ES for a few seasons, and while your setup is not going to beat Cy's car (BTW, keep in mind that Cy trophied at Nationals last year), it can certainly be a relatively competitive. it can easily hang with the Lynch brothers' Focus, for example.

my advice is to get as many instructor ride-alongs as possible--they help immensely--and make sure you have a decent set of wheels/tires, as they'll make the biggest difference.

 

[benjpi]

Well, I finally got the Ground Control coilovers installed. My impressions so far are:

1. What's with the silly o-rings over the shocks? After spending about an hour trying to get one of them to roll up under the sleeve in 90-degree weather, I gave up with the 2/3 coverage I could coax out of them. I tried chilling the o-ring, the shock, greasing the sleeve, nothing worked. Ruined two o-rings trying to squish them in with a small screwdriver. I just don't like them. I might try replacing them at some point with thin sheets of polyethylene wrapped around the shock.
2. I don't like the contact points of the sleeve onto the old spring perches. The aluminum collars only touch in one or two places, and these will inevitably wear. Not sure what to do about that yet, except cut the perch off & fab a real spacer between the nub on the shock body and the bottom of the GC sleeve.
3. What's with the spring being 2-3 inches too short? When either end suspension goes slack, the springs separate from their perches. I imagine this will happen primarily at the top. How can that work over the long term? If you go over a rise in the road, do they slam back into the upper perches? Why didn't they use longer springs?

Also of note: I had a set of Cusco camber plates from my old BG protege. They worked on the front with the GC coilovers just fine.

The front is SOLID now, but the front springs pop when the wheel is turned. I don't think the bearings in the camber plates are turning. I might try to re-fit the stock thrust bearings under the camber plates, but I'll have to have new parts machined. Might try it at the same time I put the polyethylene under the coil sleeves.

Next event: NASA at Giants Stadium on June 2

 

[benjpi]

Well, I measured the camber up front using my poor-mans alignment tool: a tape measure & a 12" tri-square/level.

1. Level the car. put a 12" level across the front of the crossmember under the hood, and adjust car height by stacking wood under the tires. same in the back (thin plywood).
2. Put the 12" tri-square against the rim, vertically. Move the top of the level away from the wheel edge till the square reads level.
3. Use a tape measure to measure the gap between the rim & the square.
4. Take the measured gap, divide by 12" (the length of the tri-square), then take the inverse tangent on the old pocket calculator. The angle answer is the camber.

I got 1.19 degrees of negative. It looked like a heck of alot more from the top of the camber plates, but facts be facts! SO..... I adjusted it again. I've moved the tops of the towers about as far in as they will go on the plates. I've got about -2 up front now for negative camber. The lower (unused) stock spring seat is about 1/16" away from the inner fenderwell, but doesn't seem to be rubbing. I reset the toe to about 1/8" toe out (another home brewed method involving zip ties, straight pieces of wood, & a measuring tape...).

Lastly, I installed the camber bolts that HAD been up front on the rear of the car. The rear is about 1.5-degrees of negative now.

The car has a wierd sort of feel right now, the turn in seems almost instant. I haven't had the opportunity to really push the car yet, driving like you do in an autocross gets you arrested in most places. It does seem to lose grip once past turn-in, but that just may be street tire pressures. We'll see this Friday if it really made a difference, but I'm happier with the newer setup.

 

[benjpi]

The autocross at Giants Stadium is now history. The course was much different than the SCCA courses I've seen, much faster. There were sections of the course that required flat-to-the-floor cornering in second gear. One particular turbo Miata spent much of his time during his runs right on the rev limiter, with his engine making that flat-out-interrupted-hiccup noise. I cringed every time, and made a mental note to avoid that particular used Miata...

Every event provides an education, still, these days. The cars here were more expensive than some other events I've been to: two Porsche Carreras (one a GT3), a Cayman S, a Boxster S, a third-gen RX7 with an LS2, an S4 wagon, an M3, a G35 with the sports package (love those Brembos....), plus the usual uprising of STI's and EVO's. The other education was class structure. My car, with its upgraded suspension, got bumped a class. My suspension upgrades (20 points total) moved my car from G to F. The caveat? Motorsports NE doesn't give a hoot what tires you run as long as their DOT legal. Result? Tooling along with my Falkens in a field filled with Victoracers, Avons, and Hoosiers. At least I can take some solace in the fact that my tires will last longer AND get me back and forth to work every day.

The car has phenomenal turn-in now, but seems to lose grip once that initial transition has taken place. Understeer is ever-present once lateral grip is pushed. The car's limits have moved up with the upgrades, but the understeer hasn't left.

Not sure what to do next, testing the car for autocross prep will get me arrested in the local parking lots. I'm thinking about more rear swaybar, seems to be something that's worked for others in the past.

Also of note, I got an offer from the wife: sell the track bike and you can use the proceeds to turbocharge the car. Interesting choice as mortality sneaks up on my almost-40-year-old-ass. One good track highside could mean weeks of recuperation as a middle-of-the road outcome, there are much worse outcomes available too. 6 minutes in the car at an autocross can't even come close to a single 20 minute session with a motorcycle on a road course, but it is (1) much cheaper and (2) much safer.

I think I may be leaving STS soon....

 

[apexlater]

Getting rid of understeer. I would try a couple of things. Before you get a rear swaybar, try reducing the amount of negative camber in the rear. Drop it down to below 1, and maybe even 0. Also, what is your rear total toe set at? I'd start with zero total toe, and go to toe out, plus play with your pressures. This is only if you think you have enough roll resistance from your springs, otherwise, go for the bar.

For the front. You may have too much camber for your tires, and they aren't in their "happy place". Next time you level the car, get the platforms level to each other instead of putting the level on the car. I use a ginormous level that can span the width of the car to level the scales/plates and also front to rear. How do you know the cross member is level to the car? I would really recommend getting a proper camber guage since it will reduce the human error significantly. I'm not saying what you are doing isn't right, it just seems to me that it would be difficult to repeat consistently.

Work on the end of the car that needs more grip first, before reducing the end that has too much. Your driving style may/probably has alot to do with how the car behaves also, obviously, so is there a faster way to drive the car with the way you have it set up? or can you set up the car faster for your driving style? Those are your choices. Do both if you can.

 

[Dpwhitehead1]

good thread. one question..off the wall..umm..which kit do you use, and where should i get it-camber kit.

 

[benjpi]

Damian,

I don't know what suspension mods you've done, I couldn't find your mod list in your thread. Anyway, the front camber kit is a set of adjustable camber plates from Corksport for a BG Protege chassis. They won't work with stock or stock-type springs for two reasons:

1. The camber plates have a small cone that transfers the load from the top of the strut bearing to the spherical bearing in the plate. That cone is too small to work with the stock strut bearings. The plastic strut bearings WILL fail if you try it, they will get crushed.
2. The top spring seat is huge, so there's not alot of room to move it in for more negative.

I have Ground Control coilover sleeves which take care of both of the above issues.

The rear camber kit is a set of camber bolts. I got mine from AutoZone for about $15. They will work in the front too. They're a little cheesy, but they do the job.

Wayne, thanks for the help. I had increased the rear negative based on the appearance of the tires after the last few events: heavy scrubbing on the outside (over the edge) with minimal wear on the inside. I haven't messed with the rear toe, I don't know how to adjust it yet. Can it be done with stock hardware or do I need adjustable arms?

I'd bet good money that the car can be driven faster than I can drive it now. My times still come down about 5 seconds from first to last run, that seems different from the front runners who have maybe 2 seconds of variation. It seems to take forever to improve when I get 5 minutes of practice every two weeks...

 

[Dpwhitehead1]

Damian,

I don't know what suspension mods you've done, I couldn't find your mod list in your thread. Anyway, the front camber kit is a set of adjustable camber plates from Corksport for a BG Protege chassis. They won't work with stock or stock-type springs for two reasons:

1. The camber plates have a small cone that transfers the load from the top of the strut bearing to the spherical bearing in the plate. That cone is too small to work with the stock strut bearings. The plastic strut bearings WILL fail if you try it, they will get crushed.
2. The top spring seat is huge, so there's not alot of room to move it in for more negative.

I have Ground Control coilover sleeves which take care of both of the above issues.

The rear camber kit is a set of camber bolts. I got mine from AutoZone for about $15. They will work in the front too. They're a little cheesy, but they do the job.

Wayne, thanks for the help. I had increased the rear negative based on the appearance of the tires after the last few events: heavy scrubbing on the outside (over the edge) with minimal wear on the inside. I haven't messed with the rear toe, I don't know how to adjust it yet. Can it be done with stock hardware or do I need adjustable arms?

I'd bet good money that the car can be driven faster than I can drive it now. My times still come down about 5 seconds from first to last run, that seems different from the front runners who have maybe 2 seconds of variation. It seems to take forever to improve when I get 5 minutes of practice every two weeks...

cool man. thanks. i'll check that stuff out. great explainations.

 

[benjpi]

Just got done with South Jersey SCCA Solo event. I got second!!! Now, some of the regular top-end competetion wasn't around, so I need to be realistic about the result. Overall a fun day, but only three runs. The course (59 second FTD, 67.1 seconds won STS) doubled back on itself so the cars only went off every 45-50 seconds at best. Plus there were LOADS of off-courses, someone told me only 5 of the first 15 drivers stayed ON course. The plus side was it was fast.

The surface could be best describes as sandy. There wasn't much grip.

My first run was a relatively tentative "don't get lost" run. I pushed a little bit on the second loop through, but not too much.

My second run was a doosie. I started off too hot, going through a slalom too fast & ruining my entry into a slow left. I plowed the cones at the entrance to the left (+2), so I sort of gave up the "clean run" philosophy right there & switched to experiment mode:

a. Experiment Number One: Can I keep the car wide open through the second-gear sweeper right onto the back "straight". Answer? NO! (spin number one...)
b. Experiment Number Two: If I stay in the throttle coming out of a fast left while sliding the car, then brake really hard for a slow right, will I make it? Answer? NO! (spin number two...)
c. What the hell, I already shot the corner, so what if I drop to first at the entrance to get better drive from the Briggs & Stratton FS-DE?? YES!! Seems to work, plus provides an entertaining display of noise for the corner workers and (of course) the driver.

We then tried experiment c on two more corners on run two. Overall, run two was 4 seconds slower than run one, but provided some key info.

My third run was the keeper for the day. I was initially expecting four runs, but we were going long on time so they cut us to three. They told us after the first row of cars (10?) did their third run & re-staged for the fourth. So it was all or nothing, so I tried to combine caution with my info from the second run. That run got me my second place finish, about 0.6 seconds off of first.

I still need work, but the car is getting fast. Still has no power & I lose time here & there from that. I might try a heavier rear sway bar, but for sure I'll add some rear toe-out before the next event.

Toying with building an STS head: milling the head to maximum factory spec, and doing a 5-angle valve job, plus back-grinding the valves. Seems silly to put that much effort into the head WITHOUT porting & polishing, but rules be rules. Also, still looking for that $25 MP3 ECU one of you has got laying around. (hardy har har...)