Has anyone every heard of using NITROGEN instead of air in thier tires? If so what are the benefits AND can I do it if I have the TPMS??
Nitrogen
- Thread starter mixmasterlove
- Start date
Alot of dealerships are going to this. Its a pretty quick and easy way to make money. Being a tech at a dealership i tend to just do it for free to all of my tires since it does have benfits. However i have heard of some porsche places charging upwards of $90 for it. If they are asking in the $40 range and your tires are pretty much brand new it is a good idea as it will extend the life of them.
I think I might switch over on monday, depending on how much they want for all 4 + the spare. They also RECOMMEND it for the TPMS (which I have), saying it helps to avoid false alarms.
Since the air is already like 78% nitrogen, I'd only get this done if it's free. Yes, 100% nitrogen will keep the pressure in the tire longer but it's hardly worth $40. If anyone claims other benefits like increased mileage, this is simply not true. Just my .02 
Otto said:Since the air is already like 78% nitrogen, I'd only get this done if it's free. Yes, 100% nitrogen will keep the pressure in the tire longer but it's hardly worth $40. If anyone claims other benefits like increased mileage, this is simply not true. Just my .02
the nitrogen fill gets the air in the tire up to 97% nitrogen. The biggest thing is that the nitrogen doesnt contain water which is the main culprit of eating the rubber inside the tire and also making the presure fluctuate. Like i said this is of great benefit on a new set of tires to get some more milage out of them.
Who the hell keeps tires long enough to have moisture rot them out?
In my experience the only real world difference is the nitrogen is a little springier then air.
Most of your air leakage is not from seepage through the tire rubber but from leaky valves.
In my experience the only real world difference is the nitrogen is a little springier then air.
Most of your air leakage is not from seepage through the tire rubber but from leaky valves.
It seems like everyone is throwing in their two cents.
Taken from another web forum debunking this using SCIENCE!
The question about nitrogen in tires has come up in other lists on the web as well. Let me clarrify a few points.
1. Air is 78% nitrogen, N2, and 21% oxygen, O2. So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen. Many of the so called nitrogen generators don't produce much more than 90% nitrogen.
2. At relatively low pressures (ie tire pressures) N2, O2 and water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow PV=nRT. Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, which is about 20 atm, there is little deviation from ideality.) Therefore the comments about N2 not changing in pressure as the temperature changes are without merit.
3. The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane depends on the molar mass and to some degree on the molecular diameter. N2 and O2 are almost the same size and N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so if either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly. Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes.
4. N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity, about 1.0 J/gK, and thermal conductivity, about 0.00026 W/cmK. Water vapor has a specific heat capacity of about 2 J/gK. But remember, water vapor will constitute less than 1% of the air in the tire. So the idea that N2 has different heat handling properties is also without merit.
5. The ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire. For instance, don't leave a condom out in the air in Los Angeles for a few days. It will develop lots of tiny holes and weaken.
spdracer22 says that dry air is preferably to air with a lot of water vapor. As a tire heats up, the very small amount of H2O present will be in the vapor state which may contribute to the overall pressure very slightly.
Several have suggested that N2 in a high pressure tank is more portable and requires no electricity. That would make sense, particularly for aircraft tires.
I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".
The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained (other than portability) by using nitrogen rather than air. The biggest gain will be $$$ by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers. And who is the biggest loser? Yep, the consumer.
found here: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1
Taken from another web forum debunking this using SCIENCE!
The question about nitrogen in tires has come up in other lists on the web as well. Let me clarrify a few points.
1. Air is 78% nitrogen, N2, and 21% oxygen, O2. So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen. Many of the so called nitrogen generators don't produce much more than 90% nitrogen.
2. At relatively low pressures (ie tire pressures) N2, O2 and water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow PV=nRT. Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, which is about 20 atm, there is little deviation from ideality.) Therefore the comments about N2 not changing in pressure as the temperature changes are without merit.
3. The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane depends on the molar mass and to some degree on the molecular diameter. N2 and O2 are almost the same size and N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so if either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly. Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes.
4. N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity, about 1.0 J/gK, and thermal conductivity, about 0.00026 W/cmK. Water vapor has a specific heat capacity of about 2 J/gK. But remember, water vapor will constitute less than 1% of the air in the tire. So the idea that N2 has different heat handling properties is also without merit.
5. The ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire. For instance, don't leave a condom out in the air in Los Angeles for a few days. It will develop lots of tiny holes and weaken.
spdracer22 says that dry air is preferably to air with a lot of water vapor. As a tire heats up, the very small amount of H2O present will be in the vapor state which may contribute to the overall pressure very slightly.
Several have suggested that N2 in a high pressure tank is more portable and requires no electricity. That would make sense, particularly for aircraft tires.
I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".
The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained (other than portability) by using nitrogen rather than air. The biggest gain will be $$$ by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers. And who is the biggest loser? Yep, the consumer.
found here: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1
I work for a large Aerospace Company as a Senior Research Tech. so I have access to many things that most people don't have access to. Like both Gaseous (GN2) and Liquid Nitrogen (LN2). I filled the tires on one of our LN2 bottle carts with GN2, only because our air lines have oil in them to lube air powered tools. It makes a mess of your tires over time.
The only real world difference I could see was a little more bounce to the tires when filled with GN2 as opposed to regular air. They seemed "springier" over the bumps.
I have access to GN2 and could fill my tires with the boil-off from an LN2 tank, no moisture there! But I personally don't think it's worth the hassle even if it's free.
The only real world difference I could see was a little more bounce to the tires when filled with GN2 as opposed to regular air. They seemed "springier" over the bumps.
I have access to GN2 and could fill my tires with the boil-off from an LN2 tank, no moisture there! But I personally don't think it's worth the hassle even if it's free.
azcat said:Yeah, forget all that science and fact stuff. Lightening the vehicle by $24 would definitely make it feel springier.
Air already contains 78% nitrogen... so even if you're lucky enough to get your tires filled with 92-96% "pure" nitrogen, I'm sure the difference would be very small.
It's similar to adding a cold air intake. Most people claim to feel 10 HP difference, when in reality, your butt dyno isn't going to be able to notice 10 HP.
Is it better than using regular air? Certainly. It's just that the difference is very small.
To me, the benefit I see of using "pure" nitrogen to fill tires comes from anyone that drives in a heavily varied climate... your tire pressures will remain more consistent than when using regular air. But again, we're talking a difference of maybe 10-15%?
Better air pressure retention. The single biggest reason for tire failure is lack of maintenance of tire pressure. In fact, 54 percent of all vehicles on the road have low tire pressure. Oxygen in compressed air can permeate the tire wall reducing tire pressure. With nitrogen, diffusion is 30 to 40 percent slower than oxygen. As a result, nitrogen maintains tire pressure longer than ambient air.
http://www.irtools.com/products/nitrogen/
Enhanced fuel economy. Maintaining tire pressure can boost fuel economy by as much as 6 percent. Nitrogen disperses heat more quickly than ambient air. By restraining the heat in the tire and reducing rolling resistance, you get better fuel economy.
Longer tread life. With quicker heat dispersion, you get a cooler running tire which helps extend tread life and reduce tire failure. Nitrogen also prevents oxidation which can not only lead to tread separation and belt failure but, when combined with moisture, corrode rims. In fact, moisture can result in rust flakes that can fall into the valve stem, block the valve and cause under-pressurization. It can even cause the valve stem itself to rust.
Slow chemical aging. Filling a tire with nitrogen also significantly slows the chemical aging process of the tire’s rubber components. This leads to fewer catastrophic failures like blowouts. Slower aging lengthens tire core life, which yields extra retreads and lower fleet costs.
http://www.irtools.com/products/nitrogen/
Enhanced fuel economy. Maintaining tire pressure can boost fuel economy by as much as 6 percent. Nitrogen disperses heat more quickly than ambient air. By restraining the heat in the tire and reducing rolling resistance, you get better fuel economy.
Longer tread life. With quicker heat dispersion, you get a cooler running tire which helps extend tread life and reduce tire failure. Nitrogen also prevents oxidation which can not only lead to tread separation and belt failure but, when combined with moisture, corrode rims. In fact, moisture can result in rust flakes that can fall into the valve stem, block the valve and cause under-pressurization. It can even cause the valve stem itself to rust.
Slow chemical aging. Filling a tire with nitrogen also significantly slows the chemical aging process of the tire’s rubber components. This leads to fewer catastrophic failures like blowouts. Slower aging lengthens tire core life, which yields extra retreads and lower fleet costs.
9Hooker said:
Yup, smaller molecules escape through things easer then large ones...Duuh!
So you'll be PAYING for Nitrogen to refill your tires more often then refilling your tires with air for FREE!
22% more Nitrogen in your tires isn't going to make any difference.
Thats all your paying for anyway, 22% more Nitrogen than you can get for free.
I can get 100% pure Nitrogen for free and I'm not going for it.
But hay if it makes you feel good...
If you worry about your tire pressure just buy a $5.00 tire gage and check them when you gas up.
And by the way, has anyone ever had a tire fail due to rubber degradation before the tread wore out?
