New MSP/P5/MP3/Sedan Radiator!!!

[o0n8]

i'm going this far slim fans i don't think would be a big deal to add to the build.

and where are the last 5 people to make this happen?

 

[TheMAN]

Well I have taken a few days to brainstorm and work with the engineer at Mishimoto on the suggestions/requests made.

First off, I would like to say that it was never our intention with this project to have as stated in a previous post here.... " at this rate, it's looking like MSP owners are screwed again"

I really appreciate everyones comments, suggestions, and input but when it comes in that form it is really not beneficial for anyone!

Second, the intention as stated from the start was to get for our market a performance radaitor that was of reasonable quality at a more reasonable cost than currently available. This required contacting and negotiating with several companies due to the relatively small market of the Protege let alone the even smaller market of the MSP.

So with those thoughts in mind I have attempted to come up with some ways to possibly make this work for as many as possible.

The passenger side (US) MSP radiator fan is similar in mounting on the top side to the sedan fan. The main difference is that the pointed locating lug on the bottom is longer. Rather than making those who wish to use this fan alter the fan I think an extra tab can be welded to the radiator. However, it will be directly below the tab for the sedan fan so when installing the radiator one of the tabs will need to be cut off.

As for the driver side (US) MSP fan, the fan runs into clearance issues with the water inlet. It seems as though it should be a simple solution to just change the palcement of the water inlet but with the cost constraints on this project it is not possible. Therefore, even though I have tried several means to get something to work for this fan I don't think it will be possible. The radiator will be set up to use the sedan/P5/MP3 driver side fan. If you determine it is necessary to have this fan several of these are available used on this forum very inexpensively.

Regarding the request to have the radiator mount so that the top of the tank is flush, that may be possible. However, the radiator dimensions are going to stay at those mentioned early on in the thread. The best way I have determined to make the radiator mounting similar to the MSP would be to provide extra long lugs on the bottom of the radiator and spacers that will allow the radiator to move up in the mounts to near the hieght of the MSP radiator. Once a prototype is received I can determine this further. My hope is that this will allow use of either the MSP mounting location and brackets or the sedan/P5 mounting location and brackets by simply using or not using some supplied spacers. If this is determined to be possible it may add some extra cost to the radiator.

I hope that our efforts in this project are appreciated??

I am open your thoughts on the ideas submitted to make as many Protege owners able to use this product as possible.

I am concerned that if a resolved consensus is not reached soon and the last few needed deposits are not received it may be a moot point....

did you look at the diesel radiator pics in one of my replies? I think it will be helpful in the design process also

another compromise that can be done is moving the upper radiator hose inlet to the right more to the diesel location which will allow installation of either radiator fan... the people with a non-MSP or diesel will have to cope with bending their stock radiator hose a bit more, but it has never been a real issue to MSP owners using the samco hose kits (which are not designed for the MSP, hence the upper hose is shaped wrong)

breakaway or cut off tabs for the support pegs can be done, but that is unacceptable to me because it hurts the resell value of the radiator... there's people who part off and move on to other cars all the time just like any other cars out there, so it's not a mazda or protege thing... the compromise to this would be to weld bolt holes at the bottom specifically for these brackets... a possible clever design to make this work is to have it installed "upside down" for MSP fan fitment or the "correct side down" for non-MSP fan fitment... the brackets or mounting need not be strong and a smaller size bolt should be used due to space constraints... M5x0.8 or M4x0.8 will work since the upper mounting holes bear the most weight of the fans anyway



in the end, I still think you're giving way to the non-turbo people too much.... most of these people don't need a radiator upgrade, and so it makes much better sense to just forgo many compromises and just go straight to a diesel size instead.... it's too bad the turbo diesel (MSP) size isn't made because I can see a market for that... MSP owners are still getting screwed because they can only buy a stock radiator if theirs breaks, or be forced to go FMIC... not everyone has FMIC or wants to go FMIC.... but with the economics in mind, I truely hope that if this radiator you are trying to market goes successfully, you'll go back and do a true MSP upgrade/replacement

 

[TheMAN]

I think for the pass side this solution is acceptable for everyone as those who do not need the tab can simply remove it with little effort

for the drivers side, would it be wrong to assume that the water inlet position on the new rad be different from the stock location? I was under the impression that both the MSP and protege inlets were in the same location?

for mounting options I believe the concept of making the rad flush is not necessarily to overcome the need to acquire additional brackets but to add overall efficiency by making a larger core. I would personally like to see a bigger core but will bend to the options available to the funding of the project

personally, I think everyone needs to remember that this is an after-market modification that may or may not be direct plug and play for everyone. Things are seldom perfect fits for any application

the diesel radiators have the upper hose located more to the center than the gasoline ones... relocating the hose to the diesel location will just cause a bit of hose bending/stretching for P5 owners but it was never an issue for users of samco hoses in an MSP (samco makes P5 hoses only)

the expectation of "not everything fits" or "not everything fits right" is the whole reason why many american made performance parts suck... the companies behind them have the mindset that they can get away with them, and most do... this has lost my faith in "buying american" and that's why my car has lots of JDM performance parts instead... the customMSP SMIC is a good example of poor fitment in that regard despite its good efficiency and design... FWIW, for the thousands of dollars I've spent on JDM performance parts, not a single one ever had fitment issues unless I was trying to do something crazy like making it work with other USDM only factory designs that was never considered when those JDM parts were made... my luck hasn't been so good with american made or american branded parts, and it's not strictly proteges or mazdas

s*** like this is why mp3racer is working hard for a elegant solution for everyone, much like washington is desperately trying hard to get health care reform done right... halfassing is out of the question.... this mentality of "do it right" is very respected and attempts to ensure that no one runs into surprises and haves to go to the parts store to spend a few dollars more to just make the damn thing go in and not sit funny (best case scenario, like what happened to me with the custommsp smic)... it's also to ensure that all necessary hardware for robust and SAFE fitment is made, much like how the autoexe tie bar comes with longer bolts and the gtspec knock offs don't... the attention to detail for proper fit and reliability is most important when it comes to expensive parts, especially when even more expensive parts depend on it! it is the japanese way, and it is the most considerate way to do things if not the only way to do things

 

[AusOrion]

in the end, I still think you're giving way to the non-turbo people too much.... most of these people don't need a radiator upgrade, and so it makes much better sense to just forgo many compromises and just go straight to a diesel size instead.... it's too bad the turbo diesel (MSP) size isn't made because I can see a market for that... MSP owners are still getting screwed because they can only buy a stock radiator if theirs breaks, or be forced to go FMIC... not everyone has FMIC or wants to go FMIC.... but with the economics in mind, I truely hope that if this radiator you are trying to market goes successfully, you'll go back and do a true MSP upgrade/replacement

I don't think that this is the case at all. Everyone of the non-MSP people in this buy has indicated that they will probably be going to slim fans. I have suggested that the mounting points for the sedan/p5 fans be ignored.

It seems most would be happy to go with the taller radiator to get the flush fitment as well - whether that is a larger core or longer mounting pegs and spacers. The only thing that is not in the favour of the MSP's is the width of the radiator because the HAVE to have a FMIC.

 

[TheMAN]

it's still somewhat favorable to MSP owners if their stock fans (which aren't as bad as all the fanboys here say) will bolt right on to a full length radiator

 

[AusOrion]

it's still somewhat favorable to MSP owners if their stock fans (which aren't as bad as all the fanboys here say) will bolt right on to a full length radiator

Agreed!

I'm sure that there are a few that will still be running their stock fans.

 

[yudkib]

i would be much more interested in any radiator if it supported stock fans.

 

[Dpwhitehead1]

i dont really care about the rad, as long as it's cheaper than the current.. and it is better than the current.. a dual pass is ideal for me.


slim fans are cheap.

 

[Jaysanooch]

i would be much more interested in any radiator if it supported stock fans.

My sentiments exactly. I would like for this to succeed but I should of asked more questions and done my research.

 

[littlemimus]

i dont even think were gonna get up to fifteen

 

[o0n8]

yeah it's looking iffy. I put it in my sig incase someone comes across it that hasn't seen the thread.

 

[MS_Rick]

so everyone pretty much wants a MSP replacement rad. but a bit wider
so you can bolt up both stock fans... is this what all the fuss is about?

 

[RX]

i would be much more interested in any radiator if it supported stock fans.

Same. Having to locate/buy additional parts sort of makes this a deal breaker for me.

 

[o0n8]

i would like a full width

 

[MP3racer]

Same. Having to locate/buy additional parts sort of makes this a deal breaker for me.

Are you on the list for purchase??

 

[MP3racer]

I would like to make sure everyone is aware of a couple of items

1. All current aluminum radiators made for the Protege series are made work with the sedan/P5/MP3 fans

2. None of the currently made radiators even attempted to try to make the MSP fans fit.

I can understand that you don't want to have to buy extra parts to make this work with your MSP and that the majority of the buyers for this initial group buy are MSP owners, but you have to understand that the manufacturer also looks at the market segment it is making this part for and places some constraints to make sure it will cover the largest market available.

So again I state....the overall size will be as previously described, sedan/P5/MP3 dimensions. This is something the manufacturer, Mishimoto, has determined to be necessary for several reasons.
Even though the size is slightly shorther in height than the OE MSP radiator it will have a significant increase in cooling capacity over either the MSP or the sedan/P5/MP3 radiator!

If you would like me to I will continue to attempt to make the MSP fans work with this radiator. If you would rather, I know the sedan/P5/MP3 fans are readily avaialble on this forum used for very affordable prices. Also, slim fans are an option as well.

I thought all of this was initally understood in the first few postings of this thread. I am sorry if it wasn't as clear as it should have been. If anyone who has placed a deposit would like to opt out let me know and I will refund your money.

 

[ear8051]

i would like it to work with the stock fans.

 

[littlemimus]

i would like it to work with the stock fans.

yeah me to. but its like a whatever thing. if you cant its no big deal or anything.

 

[Dpwhitehead1]

slim fans for me. plus it's highly likely slim fans cool better!

anyways, ill be paying soon tom. do we have an updated amount of people yet?

 

[yudkib]

I would like to make sure everyone is aware of a couple of items
1. All current aluminum radiators made for the Protege series are made work with the sedan/P5/MP3 fans
2. None of the currently made radiators even attempted to try to make the MSP fans fit.

I can understand that you don't want to have to buy extra parts to make this work with your MSP and that the majority of the buyers for this initial group buy are MSP owners, but you have to understand that the manufacturer also looks at the market segment it is making this part for and places some constraints to make sure it will cover the largest market available.

So again I state....the overall size will be as previously described, sedan/P5/MP3 dimensions. This is something the manufacturer, Mishimoto, has determined to be necessary for several reasons.
Even though the size is slightly shorther in height than the OE MSP radiator it will have a significant increase in cooling capacity over either the MSP or the sedan/P5/MP3 radiator!
If you would like me to I will continue to attempt to make the MSP fans work with this radiator. If you would rather, I know the sedan/P5/MP3 fans are readily avaialble on this forum used for very affordable prices. Also, slim fans are an option as well.

mishimoto needs to get a better grip on the big picture here. theyre targeting a market who isnt actively pursuing aftermarket radiators since their cooling capacity is already adequate, and theyre pursuing a market which is saturated with competition. lets look at some general facts about their decision, which i think most people would agree with.
- their radiator is not the lowest price to market, and its yet to be seen whether it will be the "best". their positioning among p5 radiators in general is somewhat ambivilant - people on a budget will get CS, and im sure a lot of performance minded people will still go with the AWR/Ron Davis. at this point, theyre not fully differentiated in any sense of the word.
- while the general market for p5 is larger, their target demographic of "people with p5's looking to replace their radiator" is probably about the same size to the same being said of the MSP market. maybe smaller - count the number of MSP owners on the list. theres more people able to buy the rads in the p5 market but how many are buying?
- "the fans are inexpensive enough". im starting to agree with edwin here, thats a pretty poor excuse. if i had the money, MSP bolt on compatibility would be make-or-break. if im buying a 400 dollar radiator the last thing i want to do is shell out the money for fans and brackets. i appreciate the efforts to date to make the fans compatible, but i dont think mishimoto grasps the number of people where this is vital in the radiator purchasing decisionversus doing say cap and thermostat upgrades.


so how does mishimoto ignore this. they would BE the market for a bolt on MSP rad. this alone is going to pull them more customers than being another face in the crowd in a market that really doesnt need them. i dont know mishimotos distribution model, but maybe they should get in touch with a distributor... we have plenty of AV's on here who id imagine would love to stock it and could tell you some sales numbers on p5 radiators. ask them how many more theyd sell if there was a direct bolt on for the MSP, then forward mishimoto the information.