New MSP/P5/MP3/Sedan Radiator!!!

[AusOrion]

I have researched the options that have been discussed.

Regarding the radiator height. If the rad is made to sit flush or basically MSP height all non-MSP owners will need to replace their upper radiator brackets with the flat MSP versions. Mazda currently sells these for $42/each and there are only 11 (not even enough for six sets!) available in the US.
Obviously, this will not work.

If the radaitor is made sedan/P5/MP3 height, only MSP owners will need to purchase upper radiator brackets. They are available from Mazda for $12/each and several more are available (besides the large used market from salvage/used part sales).

Also, speaking with the engineer the slight increase in height would give very minimal increase in cooling capacity since the core and end tanks are already considerably thicker than the OE radiator's.

.......

Let me know your thoughts.....

I think Edwin's point is more about efficiency rather than capacity - as these have much more capacity than stock. The way I see it is if the radiator was taller more air would pass over the core, rather than the top tank. There would also possibly be a benefit in that there would be less air flowing in between the gap between the top tank and the radiator support bar and perhaps going "around" the radiator.

Is there a major cost issue with making brackets that could be used by everyone? They are basically a flat bit of metal with some holes drilled in them. I for one, would pay a bit extra for brackets.

 

[MP3racer]

I think Edwin's point is more about efficiency rather than capacity - as these have much more capacity than stock. The way I see it is if the radiator was taller more air would pass over the core, rather than the top tank. There would also possibly be a benefit in that there would be less air flowing in between the gap between the top tank and the radiator support bar and perhaps going "around" the radiator.

Is there a major cost issue with making brackets that could be used by everyone? They are basically a flat bit of metal with some holes drilled in them. I for one, would pay a bit extra for brackets.

I understand your point about extra efficiency but in reality the endtank on the sedan height seals against the rad support quite nicely. Especially with a strip of foam sealing tape from any hardware store.

As for the brackets, yes they would not be that expensive to produce if we were looking at 100 pairs or more. However, we are having trouble to get just 15 of the rads spoken for and not all of them would need the brackets. That would make these special one off parts and the cost would skyrocket...

Looking again at the MSP fans it might be easier to just have each person make a small fabrication change to their fans to make them work rather than adapters. This would be even cheaper!
The lower attachment point on the MSP fan is a pointed locator. If aprox. 1/2-3/4" of the plastic base of it is cut out and re-attached with epoxy the fan would fit in the sedan mounting points. I have to check on the other fan.

 

[pw~mp5]

I have researched the options that have been discussed.

Regarding the radiator height. If the rad is made to sit flush or basically MSP height all non-MSP owners will need to replace their upper radiator brackets with the flat MSP versions. Mazda currently sells these for $42/each and there are only 11 (not even enough for six sets!) available in the US.
Obviously, this will not work.

If the radaitor is made sedan/P5/MP3 height, only MSP owners will need to purchase upper radiator brackets. They are available from Mazda for $12/each and several more are available (besides the large used market from salvage/used part sales).

Also, speaking with the engineer the slight increase in height would give very minimal increase in cooling capacity since the core and end tanks are already considerably thicker than the OE radiator's.

Regarding fitment of the MSP fans to this radiator. I have studied both systems and the fans. I like the idea of making it possible to use the fans from the MSP on this radiator to prevent further cost (since cost was one of the factors in the initial considerations).
I agree that the fan on the passenger side of the radiator (furthest away from the SMIC) would not allow a second set of mounts since it basically mounts in the same place just a bit taller.
My idea to allow this fan would be some adapters that would have studs on the bottom to screw into the threaded holes in the rad for the seda/P5 fan and be aprox. 1/2' thick with a threaded hole in the top to bolt the fan into.
For the MSP fan closest to the SMIC that sits aprox. 1" over from the sedan/P5 fan mount I would like to have the extra set of mounting nubs welded into the top tank but I think it might "clutter" the top tank with extra mounting points that won'e be used (ie an extra set of mounting nubs would be present no matter which fan system was used).
Again, adapters could be made to space over from the sedan/P5 mounting points to allow the use of the MSP fan.
The one point I need to check again is the lower tab placement between the sedan/P5 and the MSP fan on whether it is identical like the other fan or another lower tab will be needed.

Let me know your thoughts.....

If the radiator were designed to fit flush, brackets could be included with the radiator. If it were designed right, the brackets would be flat, i.e. simple and inexpensive to manufacture. They could be laser cut from aluminum and use the factory grommets and nuts. Fan mounting issues can then be solved with simple brackets as well. Having all hardware included with the radiator makes it plug and play, no need to source brackets or jury rigging your fans to fit not to mention the whole setup will look better.

 

[MSPM1cheLe]

I have researched the options that have been discussed.

Regarding the radiator height. If the rad is made to sit flush or basically MSP height all non-MSP owners will need to replace their upper radiator brackets with the flat MSP versions. Mazda currently sells these for $42/each and there are only 11 (not even enough for six sets!) available in the US.
Obviously, this will not work.

If the radaitor is made sedan/P5/MP3 height, only MSP owners will need to purchase upper radiator brackets. They are available from Mazda for $12/each and several more are available (besides the large used market from salvage/used part sales).

Also, speaking with the engineer the slight increase in height would give very minimal increase in cooling capacity since the core and end tanks are already considerably thicker than the OE radiator's.

Regarding fitment of the MSP fans to this radiator. I have studied both systems and the fans. I like the idea of making it possible to use the fans from the MSP on this radiator to prevent further cost (since cost was one of the factors in the initial considerations).
I agree that the fan on the passenger side of the radiator (furthest away from the SMIC) would not allow a second set of mounts since it basically mounts in the same place just a bit taller.
My idea to allow this fan would be some adapters that would have studs on the bottom to screw into the threaded holes in the rad for the seda/P5 fan and be aprox. 1/2' thick with a threaded hole in the top to bolt the fan into.
For the MSP fan closest to the SMIC that sits aprox. 1" over from the sedan/P5 fan mount I would like to have the extra set of mounting nubs welded into the top tank but I think it might "clutter" the top tank with extra mounting points that won'e be used (ie an extra set of mounting nubs would be present no matter which fan system was used).
Again, adapters could be made to space over from the sedan/P5 mounting points to allow the use of the MSP fan.
The one point I need to check again is the lower tab placement between the sedan/P5 and the MSP fan on whether it is identical like the other fan or another lower tab will be needed.

Let me know your thoughts.....

would 2 14 in slim fans fit on this rad?

 

[MP3racer]

would 2 14 in slim fans fit on this rad?

The width dimension I have from the engineer is 698.5 mm which is 27.5"

So currently I would have to say it would be real close

 

[littlemimus]

am i getting this right. we have to source our own brackets for the radiator????

 

[AusOrion]

am i getting this right. we have to source our own brackets for the radiator????

If you own an MSP, then yes.

You will need to find/buy some P5/sedan radiator brackets.

EDIT:
I did some research into what type of Protege people are running. Interesting results (please let me know if I have something wrong):

1. o0n8 - MSP
2. Boostdprotegelx - Sedan
3. littlemimus - MSP
4. MS_Rick - MSP
5. Harrisonchang - MSP
6. MSPM1chele - MSP
7. AusOrion - Sedan
8. gtrs28 - MSP
9. MSP 2731 - MSP
10. Beat - MSP
11. pw~mp5 P5
12. Hellin1978 - unsure
13. Discospeed - MSP
14. SleepyMSP - MSP
15. Jaysanooch - MSP
16. lemondrops - unsure
17. ear8051 - MSP

Seems most people in this GB own MSP's.

Also, c'mon guys. Lets get the last couple of spots paid up so we can get started.
(band2)

 

[littlemimus]

hmm. would mazda have these??

 

[TheMAN]

I have researched the options that have been discussed.

Regarding the radiator height. If the rad is made to sit flush or basically MSP height all non-MSP owners will need to replace their upper radiator brackets with the flat MSP versions. Mazda currently sells these for $42/each and there are only 11 (not even enough for six sets!) available in the US.
Obviously, this will not work.

If the radaitor is made sedan/P5/MP3 height, only MSP owners will need to purchase upper radiator brackets. They are available from Mazda for $12/each and several more are available (besides the large used market from salvage/used part sales).

Also, speaking with the engineer the slight increase in height would give very minimal increase in cooling capacity since the core and end tanks are already considerably thicker than the OE radiator's.

Regarding fitment of the MSP fans to this radiator. I have studied both systems and the fans. I like the idea of making it possible to use the fans from the MSP on this radiator to prevent further cost (since cost was one of the factors in the initial considerations).
I agree that the fan on the passenger side of the radiator (furthest away from the SMIC) would not allow a second set of mounts since it basically mounts in the same place just a bit taller.
My idea to allow this fan would be some adapters that would have studs on the bottom to screw into the threaded holes in the rad for the seda/P5 fan and be aprox. 1/2' thick with a threaded hole in the top to bolt the fan into.
For the MSP fan closest to the SMIC that sits aprox. 1" over from the sedan/P5 fan mount I would like to have the extra set of mounting nubs welded into the top tank but I think it might "clutter" the top tank with extra mounting points that won'e be used (ie an extra set of mounting nubs would be present no matter which fan system was used).
Again, adapters could be made to space over from the sedan/P5 mounting points to allow the use of the MSP fan.
The one point I need to check again is the lower tab placement between the sedan/P5 and the MSP fan on whether it is identical like the other fan or another lower tab will be needed.

Let me know your thoughts.....

I don't remember specifics on the P5 fan and diesel fan mounting differences, so you'll need someone or yourself to put them side by side to compare.... I know for sure the major difference is the longer support "leg" at the bottom of the fan in the diesel fan compared to the P5 ones which are much shorter

but as for some info about either of the diesel radiators and the fan setup, look here (for lots of pics):
http://www.imazda.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13575

actually the MSP brackets are also NOT $42 each but merely $15.12 *retail* for the right side bracket, and $42.67 for the left side bracket (I guess they made this one expensive because it's MSP specific/low production.... the diesel one that's not available here is longer and has extra s*** to attach a sensor).... even if limited quantities are available from the warehouse, it's never an issue... at least the right bracket is a standard part in the other half of the world, so resupply shipment from japan won't take long

 

[TheMAN]

I think Edwin's point is more about efficiency rather than capacity - as these have much more capacity than stock. The way I see it is if the radiator was taller more air would pass over the core, rather than the top tank. There would also possibly be a benefit in that there would be less air flowing in between the gap between the top tank and the radiator support bar and perhaps going "around" the radiator.

Is there a major cost issue with making brackets that could be used by everyone? They are basically a flat bit of metal with some holes drilled in them. I for one, would pay a bit extra for brackets.

exactly, as it stands the gasoline (aka non-MSP) radiator has the top of the end tank sitting in the airflow stream... a full height radiator will have additional fins in that space for even better heat dissipation abilities than not.... yes, it has bigger end tanks and thicker core, but air also has more resistance through it... might as well even it out!

 

[TheMAN]

If the radiator were designed to fit flush, brackets could be included with the radiator. If it were designed right, the brackets would be flat, i.e. simple and inexpensive to manufacture. They could be laser cut from aluminum and use the factory grommets and nuts. Fan mounting issues can then be solved with simple brackets as well. Having all hardware included with the radiator makes it plug and play, no need to source brackets or jury rigging your fans to fit not to mention the whole setup will look better.

you are right... just 2 flat pieces of metal with a simple elongated hole to allow the stock mounting bushing/grommet to fit is easy enough to make... you don't want a round hole because of manufacturing tolerance issues... the bolt holes are just simple 2 diagonally spaced holes... as long as it's not made exactly like OEM but will work, it will be fine... the OEM ones have folded edges and stuff to give additional strength.... not really needed

 

[TheMAN]

I understand your point about extra efficiency but in reality the endtank on the sedan height seals against the rad support quite nicely. Especially with a strip of foam sealing tape from any hardware store.

As for the brackets, yes they would not be that expensive to produce if we were looking at 100 pairs or more. However, we are having trouble to get just 15 of the rads spoken for and not all of them would need the brackets. That would make these special one off parts and the cost would skyrocket...

Looking again at the MSP fans it might be easier to just have each person make a small fabrication change to their fans to make them work rather than adapters. This would be even cheaper!
The lower attachment point on the MSP fan is a pointed locator. If aprox. 1/2-3/4" of the plastic base of it is cut out and re-attached with epoxy the fan would fit in the sedan mounting points. I have to check on the other fan.

cutting the plastic on the MSP/diesel fan shrouds is not an option.... look at the pics I linked and you will see why... the round "peg" part of the leg is only so long and the rest is just a rectangular/squarish box that allows its weight to be loaded onto the mounting tab at the bottom of the radiator

 

[Focus]

If you own an MSP, then yes.

You will need to find/buy some P5/sedan radiator brackets.

EDIT:
I did some research into what type of Protege people are running. Interesting results (please let me know if I have something wrong):

1. o0n8 - MSP
2. Boostdprotegelx - Sedan
3. littlemimus - MSP
4. MS_Rick - MSP
5. Harrisonchang - MSP
6. MSPM1chele - MSP
7. AusOrion - Sedan
8. gtrs28 - MSP
9. MSP 2731 - MSP
10. Beat - MSP
11. pw~mp5 – P5
12. Hellin1978 - unsure
13. Discospeed - MSP
14. SleepyMSP - MSP
15. Jaysanooch - MSP
16. lemondrops - unsure
17. ear8051 - MSP

Seems most people in this GB own MSP's.

Also, c'mon guys. Lets get the last couple of spots paid up so we can get started.
(band2)

So according to your own research, it's mostly the MSP guys who need a rad. Boostdprotegelx, is soon to be turbo/twin so he can be considered in the same category.

Why not make an MSP specific model, seing as that is a better design anyway.

Stock sedan/p5 owner's do not even need to do a rad change, which shown in the interested parties list. Also, sedan/hatch rads are a plentiful in new/reconditioned/used etc... The same cannot be said for the MSP.

My 2 cents...

 

[AusOrion]

So according to your own research, it's mostly the MSP guys who need a rad. Boostdprotegelx, is soon to be turbo/twin so he can be considered in the same category.

Why not make an MSP specific model, seing as that is a better design anyway.

Stock sedan/p5 owner's do not even need to do a rad change, which shown in the interested parties list. Also, sedan/hatch rads are a plentiful in new/reconditioned/used etc... The same cannot be said for the MSP.

My 2 cents...

My point was more about the height of the radiator and brackets required.

With the majority of buyers originally being MSP's, it means that most will have to buy P5/sedan brackets in order to fit the shorter radiator.

 

[AusOrion]

actually the MSP brackets are also NOT $42 each but merely $15.12 *retail* for the right side bracket, and $42.67 for the left side bracket (I guess they made this one expensive because it's MSP specific/low production.... the diesel one that's not available here is longer and has extra s*** to attach a sensor).... even if limited quantities are available from the warehouse, it's never an issue... at least the right bracket is a standard part in the other half of the world, so resupply shipment from japan won't take long

Edwin, would it possible to use two right-side brackets for this particular radiator?

We shouldn't need the left side bracket as this radiator will replace the stock SMIC.

 

[TheMAN]

not really, it's mostly due to the reinforcement ribs in the brackets that prevent them from being mounted flat

 

[TheMAN]

My point was more about the height of the radiator and brackets required.

With the majority of buyers originally being MSP's, it means that most will have to buy P5/sedan brackets in order to fit the shorter radiator.

most people buying these are MSP owners or the very few boosted P5 owners... this is more the reason to make a full height or MSP sized radiator

at this rate, it's looking like MSP owners are screwed again and having to hack up their (expensive) stock fan shrouds or buy fans to fit this radiator ALSO

 

[MS_Rick]

Do we need to create an account to view pics?

I don't remember specifics on the P5 fan and diesel fan mounting differences, so you'll need someone or yourself to put them side by side to compare.... I know for sure the major difference is the longer support "leg" at the bottom of the fan in the diesel fan compared to the P5 ones which are much shorter

but as for some info about either of the diesel radiators and the fan setup, look here (for lots of pics):
http://www.imazda.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13575

actually the MSP brackets are also NOT $42 each but merely $15.12 *retail* for the right side bracket, and $42.67 for the left side bracket (I guess they made this one expensive because it's MSP specific/low production.... the diesel one that's not available here is longer and has extra s*** to attach a sensor).... even if limited quantities are available from the warehouse, it's never an issue... at least the right bracket is a standard part in the other half of the world, so resupply shipment from japan won't take long

 

[Dpwhitehead1]

im back tom

 

[hellin1978]

1. o0n8 - MSP
2. Boostdprotegelx - Sedan
3. littlemimus - MSP
4. MS_Rick - MSP
5. Harrisonchang - MSP
6. MSPM1chele - MSP
7. AusOrion - Sedan
8. gtrs28 - MSP
9. MSP 2731 - MSP
10. Beat - MSP
11. pw~mp5 – P5
12. Hellin1978 - MSP
13. Discospeed - MSP
14. SleepyMSP - MSP
15. Jaysanooch - MSP
16. lemondrops - unsure
17. ear8051 - MSP