Oooops,... sorry about that,... the picture I posted then was obviously of the reverse switch then.
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Neutral safety switch trouble-shooting?
- Thread starter sneakypete
- Start date
- :
- 2002 Protege5
No worries. Thanks for all the help.
Sadly, the ECU is throwing the code again.
I am wondering: could there be a ground short in the ECU causing the problem when the ECU contacts the chassis? My test drive was conducted with the ECU resting on the sound deadening on the floor, and I drove anywhere from 0-55 mph for 10.5 miles, but the CEL came on just a few miles after disconnecting/reconnecting the battery again and remounting the metal kickplate. Just a thought...
Sadly, the ECU is throwing the code again.
I am wondering: could there be a ground short in the ECU causing the problem when the ECU contacts the chassis? My test drive was conducted with the ECU resting on the sound deadening on the floor, and I drove anywhere from 0-55 mph for 10.5 miles, but the CEL came on just a few miles after disconnecting/reconnecting the battery again and remounting the metal kickplate. Just a thought...
If it were me, now that you know what wires are what,... I'd replace the entire length of wire right from the ECU to the Neutral switch. That should be easy now that you've figured out the wires and colors. They mention in the FSM to check the connection for corrosion or pulled pins on the ECU connector but you had it working for a while so I'm really thinking that the culprit is still the wire with and on-again off-again short or open some where along it's length. It could be the ECU of course but I would think it would either work or not with nothing in between.
I'm looking at the electrical schematic and I'm confused, (again) That pin number 64 is labeled P/G (pink with green stripe) but there is a reference line going to it labeled (B/L) witch means black with a blue stripe. Perhaps it's the difference between manual and automatic but the important detail is the pin number. If you can find that pin (perhaps either pink/green or black/blue) then that's the pin you want. The other wire is ground (straight black, no stripe) so I'm almost positive you can ground it anywhere.
I'm gonna go check my ECU then get back to you.
OK,... I just took my car apart to look (took about 15 minutes) and the number 64 pin is definitely a pink wire with a green stripe. I disconnected the ECU to find the pin and wire but I'm pretty sure you can leave the connector on the ECU and just search for the pink/green in the bundle entering the ECU. I'm thinking in your case that pink wire is broken inside of itself and just happened to make contact when you had the ECU sitting out. If you've already had the connector and it's cover off and found that pink/green wire near the connector, I would go back to it and splice right there about 2 inches from the connector (that's the best way to avoid the bad part of the wire) then feed it through the fire wall right to the neutral switch. I would just put a ground wire under one of the bolts on the cover and feed it along with the replacement pink/green wire.
Going to put my car back together (after spraying the area down with some rustproofing)
I'm looking at the electrical schematic and I'm confused, (again) That pin number 64 is labeled P/G (pink with green stripe) but there is a reference line going to it labeled (B/L) witch means black with a blue stripe. Perhaps it's the difference between manual and automatic but the important detail is the pin number. If you can find that pin (perhaps either pink/green or black/blue) then that's the pin you want. The other wire is ground (straight black, no stripe) so I'm almost positive you can ground it anywhere.
I'm gonna go check my ECU then get back to you.
OK,... I just took my car apart to look (took about 15 minutes) and the number 64 pin is definitely a pink wire with a green stripe. I disconnected the ECU to find the pin and wire but I'm pretty sure you can leave the connector on the ECU and just search for the pink/green in the bundle entering the ECU. I'm thinking in your case that pink wire is broken inside of itself and just happened to make contact when you had the ECU sitting out. If you've already had the connector and it's cover off and found that pink/green wire near the connector, I would go back to it and splice right there about 2 inches from the connector (that's the best way to avoid the bad part of the wire) then feed it through the fire wall right to the neutral switch. I would just put a ground wire under one of the bolts on the cover and feed it along with the replacement pink/green wire.
Going to put my car back together (after spraying the area down with some rustproofing)
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- 2002 Protege5
Here is the weird thing: we traced the wires from the switch, and they are not the colors that the manual says they should be. They are brown with a red stripe and white with a pink stripe. They don't go right to the ECU either. They make a lot of stops along the way. I am baffled and exhausted. Maybe I'll just leave the ECU out and hope it stays good until I pass inspection.
I really don't think it matters what color they are as long as you know you've got the right switch on the tranny. Just snip the two wires at the switch (I'm almost positive it doesn't matter which one you pick for the pink/green wire because it's just an on/off switch),... splice in your twin lead speaker type wire, feed it through to the ECU and splice one of them to the pink/green wire at the connector on the ECU and ground the other one under a bolt on the kick plate.
You know that the pink/green wire at the connector goes directly and only to the neutral switch and the other wire is ground so all the color changes don't matter as long as you're sure you've got the right switch and the right wire at the connector.
I noticed too that the wires coming out of the reverse switch were both green and it wasn't until it went through the first connector that they changed color. They might change color a couple more times before they end up at the ECU,... but there too if you know you've got the right switch and you know the right wire colors at the ECU you can just replace the entire length. The two green wires coming out of the reverse switch prove that the polarity (pos/neg) doesn't matter,... it too is just an on/off switch.
You know that the pink/green wire at the connector goes directly and only to the neutral switch and the other wire is ground so all the color changes don't matter as long as you're sure you've got the right switch and the right wire at the connector.
I noticed too that the wires coming out of the reverse switch were both green and it wasn't until it went through the first connector that they changed color. They might change color a couple more times before they end up at the ECU,... but there too if you know you've got the right switch and you know the right wire colors at the ECU you can just replace the entire length. The two green wires coming out of the reverse switch prove that the polarity (pos/neg) doesn't matter,... it too is just an on/off switch.
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- 2002 Protege5
OK I will try that tomorrow. Thanks for all your help! This has been a truly maddening problem. I am driving with no license plate and my 10 day pass expires on Sunday. I need to pass inspection before then. Grrr.
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- 2002 Protege5
Scratch that. My friend informed me that he has already replaced the appropriate wires and their continuity checks out. According to an experienced electrician, even though the code is for the circuit and not the switch itself, it could still be an intermittent signal from the switch. I will replace the switch tomorrow (because nobody keeps it in stock) and report back. If that doesn't fix it, I will bite the bullet and take it to a mechanic. If they can't diagnose it, I can at least get an inspection waiver so I can pass even with the CEL illuminated as long as I have documented proof that I spent $200+ having a professional try to fix it.
Lesson learned: when buying a used car, if the seller says that an existing problem is a "quick fix," find out why he never fixed it.
Lesson learned: when buying a used car, if the seller says that an existing problem is a "quick fix," find out why he never fixed it.
- :
- 2002 Protege5
We replaced the neutral safety switch today. I was a bit surprised to see that removing the switch ended up draining the tranny fluid. Oops. Well I had never done it since I bought the car, so I took the opportunity. The old switch actually had some breaks in the wire sheaths so we thought it might in fact be the problem source. We hooked up the new switch and....5 miles later the CEL came back on.
I'm going to go to Autozone and ask them to clear the code in the morning. I am running out of ideas and patience and most of all, money.
I'm going to go to Autozone and ask them to clear the code in the morning. I am running out of ideas and patience and most of all, money.
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- 2002 Protege5
I hate to say it, but I am basically giving up on this issue. I spoke to another forum member who told me that replacing his car's wiring harness fixed the problem. I am going to take it to a mechanic. This is such a ghost of a problem....
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- 2002 Protege5
Oooops,... sorry about that,... the picture I posted then was obviously of the reverse switch then.
Correction: it is on the headlight side of the tranny, but underneath the clutch housing. Not on top; that's the reverse swich.
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- 2002 Protege5
We never fixed the issue, but I went to a mechanic, who recommended replacing the wiring harness (consistent with others' recommendations). So I ended up passing my inspection by getting a repair waiver. In North Carolina, if you fail an inspection, then spend $200+ trying to fix the problem, and then fail another inspection for the same OBD code, you can apply for a 1-year waiver that allows you to pass inspection with the CEL illuminated. What a ******* headache. Now I know better than to buy a used car with high miles and what the previous owner refers to as "an easy fix." If it was so easy, I should have wondered why he didn't fix it himself.
So when you say "replace the wiring harness" do you mean the big a$$ connector on the ECU and everything that it connects to?? That really seems weird to me because the only relevant circuit would be the neutral switch wires which you have replaced,... so I don't get it?? The other possibility may be the ECU itself which would be easier to replace but probably expensive, but you have to spent $200 + anyway and you could probably get one from a junker.
Replacing the entire wiring harness sounds like a huge undertaking.
This issue of yours really should be an easy fix,... it's a simple two wire, on/off circuit,... I'm really stumped as to why this is happening,... the only other possible thing I can think of is some sort of faulty connection between where you spliced the wire and where it goes into the ECU,... perhaps a bad pin or something??
It sounds like you're confident that your rewiring and new switch were done properly so maybe spending money on an ECU is your better bet,... and it may actually solve your problem. Replacing the ECU (PCM) is the final step in the trouble shooting guide.
Replacing the entire wiring harness sounds like a huge undertaking.
This issue of yours really should be an easy fix,... it's a simple two wire, on/off circuit,... I'm really stumped as to why this is happening,... the only other possible thing I can think of is some sort of faulty connection between where you spliced the wire and where it goes into the ECU,... perhaps a bad pin or something??
It sounds like you're confident that your rewiring and new switch were done properly so maybe spending money on an ECU is your better bet,... and it may actually solve your problem. Replacing the ECU (PCM) is the final step in the trouble shooting guide.
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- 2002 Protege5
It really is baffling. I don't know if the ECU is the issue though, because the code was already there when I bought the car, and I have since swapped my MP3 ECU in, which worked fine in my last P5. So unless something went wrong with it, I think the issue is not in the ECU. Unfortunately, I sold my P5 ECU so I am trying to find one to use for testing purposes. Regarding the circuit, when we traced the wires, they did not go straight to the ECU. They went to various junction boxes and we couldn't trace it straight to the ECU. The connectivity checked out though, so I really don't know what to do. I spoke to dominoy2k1 who had the same issue with an MP3, and that member said that, after trying other fixes, replacing the wiring harness fixed the problem.
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- 2002 Protege5
But yes, I do mean the whole wiring loom from the ECU and everything in the engine bay. I know it sounds overkill, but I am out of ideas. Fortunately I got the inspection waiver and am legal for now.
I didn't know about the different ECU's that were in your car. So now I am going back to the wires,... I am convinced that you should splice a wire right at the ECU connector (that pink one) and run it all the way to the neutral switch itself. None of the junctions and connections matter,... just bypass them all with a double lead speaker type wire with one going to the pink wire and one to ground (like under a bolt on the kick plate). I'm pretty sure the switch doesn't ground to the transmission when it's closed so the polarity (pink or ground wire) doesn't matter at the neutral switch. You can test for ground to the transmission by disconnecting the switch and testing for continuity between each wire (terminal on the switch lead) and the transmission (engine ground) for both in and out of gear. There should be no continuity between either terminal and ground, in or out of gear. If there is continuity between one of the leads and ground that wire needs to be the ground wire.
It sounds like you didn't actually replace the entire length of wire from the ECU to the switch and testing the wires for connectivity may not work if the wire is broken inside of itself and making occasional contact, like when you test it with the engine off,... it could be the vibration of a running and moving car that makes and breaks the contact in a broken wire.
Replacing the wire should be really easy,... just ignore the junctions and colors and rewire the entire length. I'm 98% sure that doing that would be equivalent to replacing the entire harness. You've just got to replace the entire length of suspect wire.
You simply don't have to trace the wires,... the schematic shows clearly that the electrical path goes directly from the pink wire to the switch and back to ground and doesn't go to or connect with any other circuit. I'm positive you should try this before you replace the entire ECU harness,... with all the work you've done so far you could have it done in half an hour,... if that doesn't work then spend the big bucks and hours replacing the harness.
Two dollars worth of wire and half hour of your time and I'm almost positive it will fix your problem.
The wiring schematic is in the P5-Wire section of the service manual on page 24,... it shows the pink wire going straight from the ECU to the switch. The black wire (ground) goes to numbers 3 and 4 with a circle around them. I'm thinking that is where and how it plugs into different junctions and goes through color changes but it eventually goes directly to ground.
You're not really wrecking anything by cutting and splicing the wires if you end up replacing the harness anyway.
I am in fact so sure that this will work that I am willing to cut and splice my wires 2" from the ECU and 2" from the switch to prove it. I won't even look at the other junctions and wire colors, only the pink/green and ground. Just let me know.
I will at least go out to my car tomorrow and test the continuity of the switch to see if it grounds to the bell housing or if it only grounds to other lead wire. If it doesn't ground to the bell housing (as I'm suspecting) then the polarity doesn't matter and the pink/green wire can go to any lead and the other one can ground anywhere,... I'm thinking to the engine block somewhere. I've got an oil change to do anyway so I'll do that tomorrow.
It sounds like you didn't actually replace the entire length of wire from the ECU to the switch and testing the wires for connectivity may not work if the wire is broken inside of itself and making occasional contact, like when you test it with the engine off,... it could be the vibration of a running and moving car that makes and breaks the contact in a broken wire.
Replacing the wire should be really easy,... just ignore the junctions and colors and rewire the entire length. I'm 98% sure that doing that would be equivalent to replacing the entire harness. You've just got to replace the entire length of suspect wire.
You simply don't have to trace the wires,... the schematic shows clearly that the electrical path goes directly from the pink wire to the switch and back to ground and doesn't go to or connect with any other circuit. I'm positive you should try this before you replace the entire ECU harness,... with all the work you've done so far you could have it done in half an hour,... if that doesn't work then spend the big bucks and hours replacing the harness.
Two dollars worth of wire and half hour of your time and I'm almost positive it will fix your problem.
The wiring schematic is in the P5-Wire section of the service manual on page 24,... it shows the pink wire going straight from the ECU to the switch. The black wire (ground) goes to numbers 3 and 4 with a circle around them. I'm thinking that is where and how it plugs into different junctions and goes through color changes but it eventually goes directly to ground.
You're not really wrecking anything by cutting and splicing the wires if you end up replacing the harness anyway.
I am in fact so sure that this will work that I am willing to cut and splice my wires 2" from the ECU and 2" from the switch to prove it. I won't even look at the other junctions and wire colors, only the pink/green and ground. Just let me know.
I will at least go out to my car tomorrow and test the continuity of the switch to see if it grounds to the bell housing or if it only grounds to other lead wire. If it doesn't ground to the bell housing (as I'm suspecting) then the polarity doesn't matter and the pink/green wire can go to any lead and the other one can ground anywhere,... I'm thinking to the engine block somewhere. I've got an oil change to do anyway so I'll do that tomorrow.
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- 2002 Protege5
You are correct: we didn't replace the entire length. I think you're solution sounds good, but my friend is unconvinced. I think he is being stubborn though. I want to try it, but I need his help/tools. So we'll see... Will you let me know if your solution works? Maybe I can convince him.
OK,... well I went out and did an oil change and checked a bunch of things while I was under there, (my shifter has about 2" of left to right play in it while in gear and I noticed the bushings are worn under the car where the shift rod to the transmission connects to the shifter in the car, I might spring for the special bushings or just try to make my own cause I'm a cheap a$$. I noticed that my knock sensor is leaking goo as well and I'm thinking about that as well. I took a bunch of pictures that I will try to upload later).
Anyway,... I disconnected my neutral switch at the connector and did a continuity check on the terminals and there is no connectivity from either lead on the switch to ground at the battery or any where else. The wires conduct when the car is in neutral and don't conduct when in gear (I used 2nd and 3rd gear so as to not confuse the switch with the reverse switch. The neutral switch is on the bottom of the transmission near the frames cross member and the shift rod connection point on the transmission (which is why you lost all of your gear oil when you unscrewed it.)
Both leads out of the switch are light green which makes sense if there is no polarity and neither lead conducts to ground at the bell housing or battery negative. The first connector that the green switch wires go to is on the drivers side of the engine underneath two wire looms near the battery and on the other side of the connector the wires are black and pink/green. Those are exactly what color they are supposed to be. I noticed when I went to unclipp the connector from the the metal bracket to get the connector apart that the plastic sheath around the two wires was all stiff and hardened up and it kinked sharply at one spot and bent at a sharp 90 degree angle which is exactly what I think happened to your wires some where. I ended up making two more bends in the sheath in an attempt to smooth out the bend. Both of those bends let go with a crack from the crispy sheath and wires inside. I may have broken one of the wires inside but I won't know until I drive the car and maybe get a CEL.
So with all that, I am now positive about the wires and the polarity. Just cut off the connector from your newly installed switch somewhere convenient along it's length, it's all brand new so it doesn't matter where or which of the green wires you choose (assuming that your new switch had two light green wires as well) and splice in (preferably soldering with shrink tube) and run that wire along with a parallel wire for ground connected to the other green wire and run it directly to your ECU and splice back in two or so inches from the big connector and a ground like a bolt on the kickplate.
I really don't want to have to do it to my car (although I may have to now after kinking my wires so hard) just to prove it to your friend,... But I did notice you live in NC and a lot of people from around here go to Hatteras in the spring to get an early start on the Kiting and Windsurfing season, so I may just throw my windsurfer on the roof of my car and drive down your way to give your friend a smack upside the head.
Anyway,... I disconnected my neutral switch at the connector and did a continuity check on the terminals and there is no connectivity from either lead on the switch to ground at the battery or any where else. The wires conduct when the car is in neutral and don't conduct when in gear (I used 2nd and 3rd gear so as to not confuse the switch with the reverse switch. The neutral switch is on the bottom of the transmission near the frames cross member and the shift rod connection point on the transmission (which is why you lost all of your gear oil when you unscrewed it.)
Both leads out of the switch are light green which makes sense if there is no polarity and neither lead conducts to ground at the bell housing or battery negative. The first connector that the green switch wires go to is on the drivers side of the engine underneath two wire looms near the battery and on the other side of the connector the wires are black and pink/green. Those are exactly what color they are supposed to be. I noticed when I went to unclipp the connector from the the metal bracket to get the connector apart that the plastic sheath around the two wires was all stiff and hardened up and it kinked sharply at one spot and bent at a sharp 90 degree angle which is exactly what I think happened to your wires some where. I ended up making two more bends in the sheath in an attempt to smooth out the bend. Both of those bends let go with a crack from the crispy sheath and wires inside. I may have broken one of the wires inside but I won't know until I drive the car and maybe get a CEL.
So with all that, I am now positive about the wires and the polarity. Just cut off the connector from your newly installed switch somewhere convenient along it's length, it's all brand new so it doesn't matter where or which of the green wires you choose (assuming that your new switch had two light green wires as well) and splice in (preferably soldering with shrink tube) and run that wire along with a parallel wire for ground connected to the other green wire and run it directly to your ECU and splice back in two or so inches from the big connector and a ground like a bolt on the kickplate.
I really don't want to have to do it to my car (although I may have to now after kinking my wires so hard) just to prove it to your friend,... But I did notice you live in NC and a lot of people from around here go to Hatteras in the spring to get an early start on the Kiting and Windsurfing season, so I may just throw my windsurfer on the roof of my car and drive down your way to give your friend a smack upside the head.
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Well I went for a drive for about 20 minutes shifting and clutching a whole bunch of times and my CEL didn't come on, so I guess I didn't break any wires but I'm still willing to cut and splice my wires if it's what it takes to get your friend to do it to your car.
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- 2002 Protege5
I'll try and convince him to help me this week. I'll let you know what happens...
It would be a really fast job for you to do. You could probably run the wire through the fire wall and get that part ready for him to splice in. I was thinking that the bad part of the wire would be between the fire wall and switch,... that's where all the heat and water and corrosion would probably be, but the fact that things seemed to work when the ECU was sitting out on the floor board, suggests that the break may be between the fire wall and ECU connector,... so I'd try to splice in as close as possible to the ECU connector.
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