NA Tech Race to 100whp per 1000cc's

[LordWorm]

So...what if i was to make 250+ whp n/a in my Probe...would I win this 'race'?

nitrous is not NA - it has always been considered to be chemical supercharging.

if your motor is truely naturally aspirated, and it is making 100hp per L of displacement at a minimum (so your engine capacity cannot be a single CC over 2.5L), and you can satisfy me that your car meets the conditions of the 'race', then I'll be more than happy to give you the win

 

[JKPgt96]

All apart from the 125/150 shot

Unfortunately, the 'race' has slowed to a crawl now. There have been a bunch of people going the turbo route and not much interest in NA.

I am getting a dyno run in just over a week and I will see where I stand. Aiming for 140 whp on stock intake and manifold. Soon after the dyno, I will be fixing both of those

Lol, yeah I didn't notice the OP date on this thread, oh well.

Apart from the nitrous of course!

 

[AusOrion]

Lol, yeah I didn't notice the OP date on this thread, oh well.

Don't let the date of the OP fool you.

This NA thread was quite popular a while back and raised much debate and some good information about how to build an NA monster

Unfortunately, there are only a handful of members with even moderate NA builds. They have their own threads but have not seen too many updates of late.

Lets hope that this discussion will be restarted some day.

 

[JKPgt96]

Well I will be more than willing to share when it is done...I have the heads at the shop along with all of the valvetrain components, I have the rods/pistons which will go once I get the heads back. I am deciding on a elec. water pump and external oil pump right now, those will be ordered in the next couple weeks..

And yes, I know nitrous is not n/a. I have been using nitrous for many years now. I will make 250 n/a

 

[JKPgt96]

damn internet..double post.

 

[niky]

The problem is budget and time. I'm going for new internals as soon as I have the budget... but I'm waiting for the need. Don't want to swap out the bottom end of my engine until I'm blowing smoke past the piston rings.

Took a major detour last year when my 3rd gear synchro took a dump. Since I had to order parts from the US, the car was down for a long time, and a lot of money that could have gone to furthering the build went to the gear and synchro repalcement (which I didn't want to do) and the LSD (which I did).

Right now all I'm doing is making sure the car idles properly and drives without hesitation and detonation on propane. I'm still dreaming of hitting at least 160-170 whp, but without high compression and rev delimiting options, that's not happening any time soon.

The rev-limit is the sore point. It'd cost me another thousand+++ dollars to dump my piggyback and get a standalone, with little local tech support for it... and I'd have to retune everything again, as the propane system carries its own piggyback fuel controller, which runs off the stock ECU and my current Unichip Q.

We're currently looking at finding a newer generation FS-ZE ECU that will mate to the Australian/Asian OBDI wiring. We have one laying around, but it's an older generation model with different pin-outs.

 

[JKPgt96]

Yeah, that is part of the reason I am revving out to 10k, I just cannot make the kind of power that I want without doing so. I should not have an issue though with just over 12:1 compression and the cam grind I had done.

Why not use Megasquirt on your car? I have been using it for a long time now and I love it! We are going to upgrade to MS3, just waiting for it to come out.

 

[LordWorm]

Yeah, that is part of the reason I am revving out to 10k, I just cannot make the kind of power that I want without doing so. I should not have an issue though with just over 12:1 compression and the cam grind I had done.

Why not use Megasquirt on your car? I have been using it for a long time now and I love it! We are going to upgrade to MS3, just waiting for it to come out.

Megasquirt is nice and cheap, but its hardly capable. For controllable idle with decent fidelity on the injector drivers at the kind of RPM you are talking about i'd be looking at a haltech platinum sport.

Going to assume you are running a KLZE - even at 10k rpm you are going to be struggling to get the VE high enough to reach your power goal....not that its impossible, but its going to need a fairly wild build. I have a spreadsheet in this thread somewhere that i did up that will tell you the VE target for a given power goal at a given RPM.

Also what sort of gearbox you going to run? the ol' G-series wont shift gears at 10k rpm...

 

[JKPgt96]

Ms2 is plenty capable of handling my build. I will be upgrading to an aem ems which we will be building and tuning from scratch.

I am running a custom wiseco 12:1 bottom end, with forged 331 stroker rods. I have been researching and talking to many people while I carefully put together a parts list and acquire parts for this build. Trust me..it is VERY wild, to say the least...

external oiling system
elec. water pump
worked heads
built valvetrain
one-off cam grind
itbs
custom longtubes
vacuum pump
etc..

My setup is very similar to leo's build in his 323, however, he used stock ZE heads, smaller cams, stock hotshot primaries, a TEC3, and no vacuum pump...and he did 273 whp n/a...250+ should be no issue for me.

For the trans...the car is getting a custom mx3 lower mount, it has solid mounts all the way around, a southbend stage 4 full face clutch, it also has traction bars. The trans will be fine n/a, but I am going to put together one with a PAR 1-4 gearset and a MFactory LSD.

...and leo went 11.2 @ 120 on a stock g-series..the car is light and makes less than 200wtq, two major contributors to making these transmissions last. Trust me, I have been in these transmissions as much as anyone. I have built them, rebuilt them etc..I know..and I will run my motor n/a with a stock trans for a bit.

 

[niky]

On a daily driver... no MS for me. As soon as I get a new family car, though, I may consider going standalone.

Right now, I plan to enjoy the car as is and worry about more power when I finally blow it up.

 

[JKPgt96]

haha...yeah, I don't blame you, that is what forced me to get a DD

 

[Antoine]

Exciting Updates! Great to see this ol' thread back in action...Keep the updates coming...All this talk of standalones & 10K RPM limits is fantastic...Can't wait to see how your builds turn out!

Also be sure to post pics and vids whenever possible...Thanks!

 

[LordWorm]

...and leo went 11.2 @ 120 on a stock g-series..the car is light and makes less than 200wtq, two major contributors to making these transmissions last. Trust me, I have been in these transmissions as much as anyone. I have built them, rebuilt them etc..I know..and I will run my motor n/a with a stock trans for a bit.

It might last...but it wont shift gears, at much over 7500rpm. Its a double synchro transmission. Even a triple cone setup wont shift much past 8500. Unless you plan on shifting at 7500 in all gears and only winding it out in 5th???

I'd also recommend against the MS2 for a wild build. You've got next to know fidelity in the injector department. It'll idle like a bag of crap. Serious builds call for serious computers...and not to be impolite, but megasquirts are childs play things. Interesting projects in their own right but they don't really belong on the shopping list of a build as serious as this.

Plenty of race teams here have actually ditched their AEM's in favour of the new haltechs... and i've read incredibly good things about them.

 

[Gen1GT]

What's the vacuum pump (oxymoron) for?

 

[LordWorm]

What's the vacuum pump (oxymoron) for?

Crank evac I believe. Many muscle car drivers swear by them. Poor mans dry sump (from the evac point of view)

 

[JKPgt96]

The trans will and has been used in cars turning the kind of rpm I am going to be turning. I am going to build a trans for it, just not right away.

The vacuum pump help evac, but it also helps to seal the rings in another direction, thus less blowby, and more power. It will also help to reduce windage in the bottom end, helping the motor to rev and turn more freely. As mentioned the car will be getting a new EMS at some point, but for now it will use MS. The injectors while it is n/a are only 370cc s2k injectors, but they should not be a big issue in getting the car to idle..I am not really worried about it. If it idles at 1500, then so be it.

 

[LordWorm]

The trans will and has been used in cars turning the kind of rpm I am going to be turning. I am going to build a trans for it, just not right away.

The vacuum pump help evac, but it also helps to seal the rings in another direction, thus less blowby, and more power. It will also help to reduce windage in the bottom end, helping the motor to rev and turn more freely. As mentioned the car will be getting a new EMS at some point, but for now it will use MS. The injectors while it is n/a are only 370cc s2k injectors, but they should not be a big issue in getting the car to idle..I am not really worried about it. If it idles at 1500, then so be it.

what sort of intake you planning to use?

Oh...and for the record. Without going to full dog engagement - the gearbox WILL NOT change gears at that kind of RPM. I get locked out at 7500rpm in the G-series box on occasion...and it gets noticably harder to change gears between 7000 and 7500rpm. That will only get worse the faster you spin the motor - to a point where it will lock you out all the time.

You can claim it has been successfully spun to that RPM and changed gears all you like - its not mechanically possible for the G-series box without extensive modifications.

 

[JKPgt96]

My last motor saw 8000 rpm all the time and I never had an issue changing gears, I have done well past 7500 rpm with a STOCK trans in my car..anyways, the car is getting a built trans after while anyways, so it doesn't much matter..

As for an intake, well the itb's will not have a plenum on top of them due to height issues with the hood, they will have very short filters on top of them.

 

[MakeMeGoFast]

You have any progress threads over on PT? Would love to see some pics

 

[JKPgt96]

No..I will start taking pics of the parts and the heads once I get the heads back and such..Not much to take pics of right now, just a pile of parts mostly, lol