My 7 year's experience with Hypertech...

[mazdaspeedy]

After 7 years using the Hypertech tuner on my 08 MS3, I have come to the conclusion that is really does nothing significant to change the car's stock parameters. I base this on 4 Mustang Dyno runs and my own data logging.

Granted it has limited capabilities with the cold air intake choices being the only real "CHANGES" allowed. The 0-60mph limited throttle choice affects things very little. I have chosen all the various parameter changes and have charted minimal AFR differences..the car still runs rich ,11.0 or so, at WOT ( barely touches 10.8 for a millisecond) with any of the Hypertech settings vs. stock. For most of the rpm's and max boost runs the AFR is in the 12-13 range so the more appropriate 11.0:1 AFR hardly ever sees the light of day. Once again, the stock setting runs mimic what I have seen with Hypertech.


(BTW, have quite a few more posts than 10..computer crashed and had to get new username, etc.)

Never have I had anything but a carbon coated tailpipe. Gas mileage, dyno'd HP/TQ/AFR/ boost readouts are within 5% or less with testing parameters the same as far as fuel octane/ambient temp...this is using 4 different cold air intake choices. Never have I seen the HP/TQ increases that Hypertech claims. Car has under 50K miles right now and in superb mechanical shape, tested for vacuum/pressure leaks without ever showing a problem.

I don't have any axes to grind here but thought I'd share some objective data. My background is fairly solid..been dealing with turbochargers since 1972 (can you remember Crown, Turbonetics !!).

Like everything else, this is my opinion and can be taken for what it's worth or not..sure the boys in TN at HT think differently but then their paycheck is involved.

 

[hornsfan10609]

Try out a Dynotronics tune, it is a true custom tune.

 

[MSMS3]

Thank you for your post. My experience with Hypertech has been quite different. It may have to do with mod choices. What other mods are you running?

I'm attaching a couple Virtual Dyno charts to illustrate my point. Virtual Dyno is widely employed by custom tuners over on the MSF board and has been found to very closely correlate to DynoJet when using a 1.01 or 1.02 correction factor and accurate SAE data. I'm getting between 295 and 310 whp with Hypertech tuning and my mods.

There are some things about Hypertech's tuning philosophy that need to be understood:

1. If you are experimenting with intake choices to try to get a leaner AFR, that is not a good thing. Mazda intentionally designed this engine to use super rich AFR's under maximum load to provide cylinder cooling. The extra fuel under load works a lot like methanol or ethanol to lower temperatures in the cylinder. This reduces risk of detonation and allows extremely aggressive timing. HT actually uses that to benefit by getting extremely aggressive timing advance at high rpm high load. I'm seeing 18 degrees, sometimes 19 degrees timing toward redline under those circumstances.

2. The intake choices are to obtain a correct MAF calibration, not to improve maximum power. Everything a tune does is dependent on the proper MAF calibration. HT's efforts to match intakes is for that purpose and seems to be spot on accurate, at least for me. An accurate MAF calibration also helps the tune operate smoothly at light throttle and mid throttle, which is how we drive our cars most of the time.

3. Selecting the wrong MAF cal setting (wrong intake choice) can result in high exhaust gas temperatures. It is widely known from the unfortunate experience of VW-Audi tuning company Neuspeed, that leaning out the tune on a K04 turbo at high rpm can produce exhaust gas temps (EGT) exceeding 1500 degrees. That is unhealthy to the K04 turbo. HT's objective in its tune was to stay just at the edge of 1500 degrees. Going beyond that did not produce any gains worth talking about and did expose the turbo to damage.

4. A lot of the benefit of the HT tune for me has been its adaptability with other mods. It optimizes intake and exhaust mods in particular. I think most of my gains are probably from the intake and my 3" catless exhaust, optimized and enhanced by the HT tune. Running that exhaust without a tune produced nice power gains, but some very scary boost spikes up in the 21-22 psi range. With the HT tune, I get the same gains, or a bit more, but the spikes are gone, target boost is about 18 psi with a nice taper down to about 14 at redline, and a very broad power curve. NOTE: If you run a 3" catless dp/rp with any tune, whether HT, Cobb AP, Versatune, or otherwise, you MUST upgrade the fuel pump internals to allow for the increased fuel demands.

HT's tune raises boost by about 2-3 psi but wisely tapers the boost towards redline, because of the thermal efficiency characteristics of the small K04 turbo. It also raises load limits to about 2.0 which enables the higher boost and more aggressive timing toward redline to produce extra power without the ECU's nanny protections (fuel cut and boost cut) to jump in and spoil the fun.

You are never going to see anything but a carbon tailpipe on any direct injection turbocharged engine. If you do, that engine is not long for this world. This engine has to run rich to run safe.

There is no way to compare direct injection engines with extremely high compression and high boost turbochargers to earlier turbo designs. I am not new to turbocharged car either. I've had a string of turbo SAAB's, 1984 900T (no intercooler), 1988 9000T and 1995 900T and a 5 cylinder Volvo S60T before this car. The last two SAABs were highly modified running big T4 turbos with modified fuel systems and custom tunes.

Rich AFRs are absolutely necessary with this DISI engine. Even AP custom tuned cars over on the MSF board try to stay in the 11's and by doing so, cannot run as aggressive timing advance as the HT tune does. The charts below show how rich the engine gets up high, but how well the power is sustained because of the much higher timing advance.

The reality is that with correctly selected mods, HT can and does allow our engines to approach 310-315 whp. That is the practical upper limit of the stock K04 turbo on ANY tune running on premium grade (93 octane) pump gas. Other tunes outpace HT only when E-85 fuel blends or larger turbos are being used, or have excessive torque down low. HT does not produce the huge (and I think useless) bump in torque up to as much as 350 lbs between 3,000 and 3,500 rpm. I can't use the torque I have now with HT in first or second gear, even with the very sticky tires in my signature below. Full throttle in either gear just breaks them loose.

Another way to accurately make performance comparisons with your tune is to compare the time column on your datalog or use a stopwatch doing a WOT pull in 4th gear from 60-100 mph. Stock is typically about 8.4 seconds or so. My times are 5.8 to 6.1 seconds, depending on ambient conditions. That's serious power gain. I've attached a G-Tech Pro accelerometer chart showing a run to almost 130 (let up a fraction of a second too soon), to show what this tune and mods can do. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm sorry your experience has not been like mine. I wonder if you might download Virtual Dyno (its freeware), and run your datalogs through it and let's compare. Here are some data logging charts to ponder:

 

[cghms3]

Great write-up MSMS3 - I have almost the same mods = I have the Mazdaspeed cai, Mazdaspeed catback exhaust, hypertech tune, Autotech HPFP internals, and Michelin pilot super sport tires. The only difference is that I am running cats (I live in Calif., smog check hell) - My question is, what do you think my horsepower and torque is with the above mods? Thanks in advance!

 

[MSMS3]

Thanks. Your power would be a guess. A CBE does not really produce much gain, because the stock CBE flows so well. What you seem to be missing is a 3" downpipe and racepipe either catless or catted, ahead of your CBE. I attribute my dp/rp to a lot of my gains. The most severe exhaust restrictions are before your CBE and you have not addressed that.

Do you have any way to datalog? A csv log on a 4th gear WOT from 3k rpm to redline could be run through Virtual Dyno. Or you could do a timed run in 4th WOT 60-100 mph could also be used to make a reasonable estimate. Without more to go on I'm only guessing: 275 whp, 290 torque.

 

[cghms3]

Thanks for the info MSMS3 - no, I don't have a data logging device, I just wanted an educated guess. I wish I could ride in a speed 3 that has a downpipe/catless, and see how much of a difference the added power affects traction in 1st and 2nd gears. I can easily break the tires loose in 1st and 2nd (although I don't - I don't want to buy tires every 3 months!). It seems that with a downpipe/catless setup, you would only be able to use it in 3rd gear and above, thus running over 100mph +. I can't afford a ticket - I've had a few close calls running triple digits, so I'm probably better off with my current setup, although it would be tempting to upgrade the downpipe and go catless....

 

[MSMS3]

Another way to assess performance is stopwatch timing in third gear. That is safer from a ticket perspective. Make timed runs from 50 to 75 mph. See if you can break 3.0 seconds. Go WOT at 40 mph so that you have full boost at 50 when you start the timer. I'm doing it in about 2.7-2.8.

You can use a dp/rp with HT and still get long tire life. You just need some stickier tires (see sig for one suggestion) and learn to roll into the throttle in 1st and 2nd, and not really go WOT flat shifting until you are in 3rd.

 

[cghms3]

The 3rd gear timed run sounds a little safer - I will have to try it - I'm running Michelin super sport extreme summer tires - they are pretty sticky, but they will spin if I slam it in 1st and 2nd. So yeah, I too roll into the throttle. I guess the real issue is traction (or lack of), that hinders quick times - I beat Mustangs, a Lexus IS350, a Harley, all on the freeway, where traction is not really an issue. But back to OP's statement, my seat of the pants "data collector" tells me the Hypertech does add some H.P., and I'm sure much more with the downpipe/catless like your setup - Thanks again MSMS3!

 

[MSMS3]

If you want to monitor, and have an Android phone or tablet with Blue Tooth, there is an app called Torque that some guys use with an inexpensive BT dongle plugged into the OBD port.

I use a more pro monitoring setup, ScanXL Pro with a Mazda PIDs. It connects to my laptop with a fast J2534 cable. A bit pricey, but it can monitor every sensor on the car, not just the engine. That's what accumulates the data that I post. It can even report individual tire sensor data.

Sorry for jacking the thread, but monitoring is a good thing, even with Hypertech. Not needed for safety, but it can help you diagnose problems like leaks before or after the turbo, MAF or MAP or 02 sensor issues and whether mod choices are actually making more power for you.

 

[cghms3]

I'll have to borrow my wife's phone - mine is an old school basic phone. A few questions : 1) What is a "BT dongle"? 2) How much for the ScanXL Pro with a Mazda PIDS (I'm guessing it would be to complicated for a noob like myself - I don't even know what a "Mazda PID" is). I appreciate all your help MSMS3! And sorry OP for jacking your thread.

 

[MSMS3]

It's ok. OP has his own experience and his own sense of value. I do wonder what other mods he has installed, whether they are compatible with each other and HT and whether he may have installed them all correctly. One boost leak or something like a hose off of the boost control solenoid, just as examples, could render performance mods ineffective.

 

[cghms3]

Hey MSMS3 - Thanks again for all your help! I hope OP also takes your advice.....

 

[3dee]

Hey guys, I have a hypertech on my Pu for 2 years now. As far as performance goes, it made a small difference on a stock car but nothing to write home about. Now, I had the autotechs and a CP-E cai installed the other day, and damn has this thing come alive. My plan is to do the down pipe also soon. Not sure how much the HT has contributed, but something tells me that just the intake itself with no tune could not work so well. It's powerful across the whole band. I'm using a Torque pro app to monitor. This thing is great and it only cost $7.00 for the Bluetooth dongle on ebay and $5.00 for the app. I've been monitoring the fuel pressure for the last 3 days and it's holding strong 1700 psi + on wot. I think it's gonna rock with the downpipe.

 

[boosted1]

The HT is not going to make tremendous hp gains, but it will make nice enhancements to hp and torque along with smoothing out the rough spots in the rpm range. The HT works well with with bolt -on mods and makes them work better with increased gains. This is the safest plug and play tune you can get. With my bolt-ons and the HT tune, my car is a beast to be reckoned with.

 

[mazdaspeedy]

Read through the posts..good stuff. My 08 only has the HT and Cobb short ram intake as far as the motor. Susp/brakes upgraded. No boost leaks per pressure testing and trim numbers good. From reading i get the consensus that a few bolt-ons are needed to see any real difference. With HT set for my Cobb intake, hard pressed to think I was seeing 300 +HP.

 

[MSMS3]

Read through the posts..good stuff. My 08 only has the HT and Cobb short ram intake as far as the motor. Susp/brakes upgraded. No boost leaks per pressure testing and trim numbers good. From reading i get the consensus that a few bolt-ons are needed to see any real difference. With HT set for my Cobb intake, hard pressed to think I was seeing 300 +HP.

No, you should not be seeing hp that high. But you probably are or should be 25-30 whp above stock. Get a 3" dp/rp (mandatory fuel pump internals upgrade), go one step colder on your plugs, and THEN you will approach 290-300 whp.

 

[Big Eldorado]

Ive only done the corksport intake, one step colder plugs and HT tune on the engine so far. I can tell you the Butt Dyno sure loves the Hypertech, it felt like a different car instantly. AND it took care of a seriously odd idle issue and lean condition at high RPMs after I installed the intake. The care seemed to hesitate at high RPMs right after the intake install, ordered the HT after the 1st test run. Instant fix and Beast mode was awakened. You just gotta ask yourself how much power do you think you're gonna get out of just a HT, don't expect a rocket without support mods. And the best part is after 2 years and 60'000 kms its all been a Safe trip for my engine

Drive your MS3 with the hypertech for a month then put the stock MAP back in...its like driving some odd slow cousin of the Speed (see ford focus st)

Long live Hypertech!

THREAD JACK: I have torque on my andriod and a ELM327 BT OBD2 port dongle and the program is wicked. For under 20$ for the program and dongle, can't go wrong if you're on a budget

 

[MSMS3]

Read through the posts..good stuff. My 08 only has the HT and Cobb short ram intake as far as the motor. Susp/brakes upgraded. No boost leaks per pressure testing and trim numbers good. From reading i get the consensus that a few bolt-ons are needed to see any real difference. With HT set for my Cobb intake, hard pressed to think I was seeing 300 +HP.

Right. You probably are up about 25 whp over stock with just those mods. But, you now have usable power all the way to redline instead of falling in your face at 5,500 or so. You have control over idle rpm, which will be helpful if you go with more rigid engine mounts, by raising idle to reduce vibration.

As stated above, it really comes into its own with a good downpipe or even a racepipe.

 

[60181]

Right. You probably are up about 25 whp over stock with just those mods. But, you now have usable power all the way to redline instead of falling in your face at 5,500 or so. You have control over idle rpm, which will be helpful if you go with more rigid engine mounts, by raising idle to reduce vibration.

As stated above, it really comes into its own with a good downpipe or even a racepipe.

^^ Everything MSMS3 has said in this thread. He helped me with my 08.5GT when I started modifying it and it's awesome. I don't post here much and with 3 cars I really only drive my MS3 now and then (32k on ODO today) and it's 5 1/2 years old.

The hypertech tune for me was exactly what I wanted. I've dyno'd several times and to the wheels it's always been 270-285hp/290+Tq depending on air temps, etc. at the events I've gone to. Not smoking fast and I don't track the car on the 1320' but on the road my great friends late model STi is never in front of me. Without it, from a roll, he would always put about 1 car length on me at each shift, mainly because stock the MS3 falls flat at 5500. No more.

Freeway on ramps are great. 3-4-5th gears and running through them is 10x more fun now with Hypertech. Down low the reality is the MS3 is a FWD PIA car to drive so adding any more IMO is a waste thus I won't likely be doing any more power mods. 1st is useless 2nd still rips the tires all the way through and it's not really until 3rd that I have any usable traction.

Anyway, good luck with your mods and enjoy the car. I look at it as a fun little inexpensive but very nicely featured unique car. Not too many at all of the 1st gens around where I live so even after only a few years, it's in high demand.

 

[cghms3]

Hi pdqgp - Are the numbers you have listed at the crank, or is that "at the wheels"? Do you run a testpipe/downpipe? I ask because I too have the Hypertech, with a ms cai, ms cbe, and autotech internals (I don't have a downpipe due to Calif. smog laws, and I have heath issues that prevent me from working on my car).
I have also read on another forum that some guys running Hypertech tunes blew their motors - anyone know about this? I have been very happy with my setup, and I agree with what you said - more usable rpm range, smoother, and a bit more power.
My goals were to fix the known issues - shocks, motor mounts, shift linkage, and give it some light power mods!