MPI Tuner Anyone?

[ViksMSP]

Check out this links. The last photo is of the Callaway Corvette Twin Turbo. It was made by the same people that help build the MSP turbo system. If you look at the front of the throttle body you will see two big extra injectors on it. This is the way it came from Chevy when you got it. It was a 50 state legal car and at the time it was the highest hp American made car you could buy. This car was built from the ground up. They used Chevy Bow Tie block and they remachined the whole engine and cooling system to handle the extra power that it made.

http://www.corvettelegends.com/turbo.htm

The next link is for the New Edelbrock Honda turbo kit. It is one of the most complete kits you can buy today for the Honda. It is also 50 state legal. The thing to look at it the new intake that it comes with. Under the intake they have an extra set of staged injectors. To run the extra injectors they have a piggy back unit. Here is the link.


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/index.html

Why would companies with big dollars to make anything, go with extra injectors?

Thanks again

Later..........Nick

I just looked at that picture and you're not proving your point here, see they knew better not to put the injectors further away into the intake piping, they added the second rail right after the first one, just under it.
People are not saying that extra injectors are bad, they are saying that with a stock intake manifold you would have to put the injectors in the pipe, like you've done, but because of the flow and all that physics stuff, you'll end up splattering fuel all over the intake manifold. Ok so i over exhaturated a bit, I didn't major in moving parts or physics.

Vik.

 

[MPNick]

Less than 20 degrees in the intake runners, the lower the better.
In the TB, they are saying a 90 degree opposition to the TB is best. Which makes sense, to create turbulence in a perfect tube you need to offset the angle, allowing the air and fuel to mix.

The first company that I saw do this was Miller/Woods. They sold a product called the Micro-fueler. It was use by Callaway on the all of the cars they did. They made alot of turbo cars for the OEM. Along with the twin turbo Corvette they did the VW Rabbit turbo and the Alfa Romeo. All of the their kits used the Miller/Woods Micro-fueler.

I used a few of these system back then. Miller/Woods felt that you would get a better mix if you sprayed to fuel into the boosted air stream at 90 degrees. Some poeple have told me that this is wrong. They have never used a extra injector set up but they do have an opinion on how it works. I have not seen a problem with the 90 degree spray angle. My opinion is based on real work use.

The 20 degree angle is for a NA fuel spray at idle. Think about all of the throttle body OEM cars that are running down the road. Even today you still have throttle body cars being sold. Fuel mix from cylinder to cylinder is not a problem under boost. The fuel will mix very well into the boosted stream of air.


Thanks again


Later...........Nick

 

[MPNick]

I just looked at that picture and you're not proving your point here, see they knew better not to put the injectors further away into the intake piping, they added the second rail right after the first one, just under it.
People are not saying that extra injectors are bad, they are saying that with a stock intake manifold you would have to put the injectors in the pipe, like you've done, but because of the flow and all that physics stuff, you'll end up splattering fuel all over the intake manifold. Ok so i over exhaturated a bit, I didn't major in moving parts or physics.

Vik.

OK Mr, Vik, check this one out.


http://www.dodge-vipers.com/vipers/dlmstage43.jpg

This is the setup they use on their 1,200 hp street cars. It is also a V-10 engine. The Callaway is a V-8 engine. If the fuel pattern is so bad with the extra throttle body injectors then why do they use this set up. The Viper package starts at $9,000 and can go up to $65,000 with a complete engine build. Do you think that they would gamble on extra injectors in the throttle body if they did not work?

We are talking about a 4 cylinder engine getting a mix of fuel under boost. How far off is the manifold from port to port. If it is that far off you have better get 4 different injectors. You will have to get your manifold flow tested. Then go with a bigger injector in the port that flows the most. Then get a smaller injector for the second best flowing port. Then do the same with the third and fourth port. Are you getting the idea here or do you need to major in math also.

If a V-10 with two plenums on the intake that is over 30" long can get the fuel mixed into the engine to make over 1,200 hp, why would we have a problem with mixing into 4 cylinders?


Thanks again


Later.........Nick

 

[70]

Check out this links. The last photo is of the Callaway Corvette Twin Turbo. It was made by the same people that help build the MSP turbo system. If you look at the front of the throttle body you will see two big extra injectors on it. This is the way it came from Chevy when you got it. It was a 50 state legal car and at the time it was the highest hp American made car you could buy. This car was built from the ground up. They used Chevy Bow Tie block and they remachined the whole engine and cooling system to handle the extra power that it made.

http://www.corvettelegends.com/turbo.htm

The next link is for the New Edelbrock Honda turbo kit. It is one of the most complete kits you can buy today for the Honda. It is also 50 state legal. The thing to look at it the new intake that it comes with. Under the intake they have an extra set of staged injectors. To run the extra injectors they have a piggy back unit. Here is the link.


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/index.html

Why would companies with big dollars to make anything, go with extra injectors?

Thanks again

Later..........Nick

First off, Callaway is not a very impressive source to me. They did not do that great of a job on the MSP. And it shows.

And the Edelbrock kit shows that they add an extra fuel rail to the intake manifold, not in the charge pipe before the throttle body.

I think adding extra injectors can work, but not before the throttle body. In the manifold is a better position. Which, I know you offer that as an option on the MPI Tuner.

I've been looking around and more and more people seem to think that pre-throttle body injection and throttle body injection worked at the time it was used on OEM cars, but now-a-days isn't a very viable option with better fueling technology available.

Some of the owners of big power cars that had TBI have switched to carbs for better fueling and more reliable running. Why would they do that if it was so great?

As for the way they sit on those two cars, I was simply asking. I thought it was odd for them to sit 90* to the flow, but if it works, it works.

 

[MPNick]

First off, Callaway is not a very impressive source to me. They did not do that great of a job on the MSP. And it shows.
I think adding extra injectors can work, but not before the throttle body. In the manifold is a better position. Which, I know you offer that as an option on the MPI Tuner.
Some of the owners of big power cars that had TBI have switched to carbs for better fueling and more reliable running. Why would they do that if it was so great?
.

I think the Callaway did a great job with the exhaust manifold and the turbo package on the MSP. Not sure about the tuning programing. Keep in mind that it was Mazda that gave Callaway the contract and Mazda approved it. Maybe they only gave Callaway so much money to RD and get the job done, it is hard to blame anyone when we do not know what was what. Maybe the You should be mad at Mazda for letting out the door with the stumble problems.

Again, like I have sad before. If you do not want them in the throttle body put them in the intake.

The TBI had problem with size. The throttle body were small and bigger injector cannot be had. With carb they gained size and they could add fuel with bigger jets.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[ViksMSP]

Nick,

I'm not saying the extra injectors are bad, but seriously, I really don't need to major in anything to know that if you pop the head off of that engine you'll see a difference between piston 1 and 4. If not then you're right 100%. It's probably a good solution to have extra injectors and also is probably simple enough where you don't need a new intake mani. IMO bigger injectors like 440cc against the TBI, 440 is probably easier and more practical.
BTW, I can't remember if I asked you this or not, but do you provide the pipe that you add the injectors to or just add them to your hardpipes. For people that don't have hard pipes, or fmic.
Personnaly i do.

VIk.

 

[MPNick]

Nick,

I'm not saying the extra injectors are bad, but seriously, I really don't need to major in anything to know that if you pop the head off of that engine you'll see a difference between piston 1 and 4. If not then you're right 100%. It's probably a good solution to have extra injectors and also is probably simple enough where you don't need a new intake mani. IMO bigger injectors like 440cc against the TBI, 440 is probably easier and more practical.
BTW, I can't remember if I asked you this or not, but do you provide the pipe that you add the injectors to or just add them to your hardpipes. For people that don't have hard pipes, or fmic.
Personnaly i do.

VIk.

Vik, if throttle body injectors can mix evenly into a V-10 and support 1,200hp why can we not mix evenly into 4 clyinders. If you had an uneven flow of air with the intake manifold, you would have already had problems when it was a NA engine.We can set you up with a tube that already has the injector bungs installed. We are also doing a plate to fit in between the throttle body and intake to hold the injectors. This way it would be PnP.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick

 

[ViksMSP]

I just thought with that much power they didn't really care for a small loss, and drilling 10 holes in the mani would be kind of painfull.

Anyways, hows the warranty on the MPI tuner? Notice in my sig, I'm waiting on the AEM. Here's the reason, the AEM looks to be a much cleaner and practical setup, and it makes a lot of sense. Controlling the fuel and timing is a bit different then manipulating what the ecu see's, to me it's a big deal.
In my work, I deal with 70 year old electrical designs, that have been manipulated and tricked with many times, and when I finnally figure out what they tried to achieve, I do a design to replace it all with a very simple and practical one.
Maybe I don't know enough info on the MPI or the piggybacks themselfs, I just think that they are a bit more rough of a solution.
I do know that I NEED Engine Management, I'm not man enough to run 10psi without it, I accidently hit 10.5 a couple of times and I think it feels too good to be safe.
There are a few options out-there, like Corksports ecu chip, and maybe AEM soon, and MPI tuner. So if AEM don't go thru I'll be asking you more questions.

Thanks for your answers.
Vik.

Vik, if throttle body injectors can mix evenly into a V-10 and support 1,200hp why can we not mix evenly into 4 clyinders. If you had an uneven flow of air with the intake manifold, you would have already had problems when it was a NA engine.We can set you up with a tube that already has the injector bungs installed. We are also doing a plate to fit in between the throttle body and intake to hold the injectors. This way it would be PnP.


Thanks again


Later.......Nick

 

[70]

I think the Callaway did a great job with the exhaust manifold and the turbo package on the MSP. Not sure about the tuning programing. Keep in mind that it was Mazda that gave Callaway the contract and Mazda approved it. Maybe they only gave Callaway so much money to RD and get the job done, it is hard to blame anyone when we do not know what was what. Maybe the You should be mad at Mazda for letting out the door with the stumble problems.

Again, like I have sad before. If you do not want them in the throttle body put them in the intake.

The TBI had problem with size. The throttle body were small and bigger injector cannot be had. With carb they gained size and they could add fuel with bigger jets.


Thanks again


Later..........Nick

Callaway also used larger injectors in the stock location for the MSP (340cc vs 320cc). Callaway also came up with the intial programming for the ECU. Mazda then had Infineon turn that program into the ECU code. This is my understnading at anyrate.

It seems to me if Callaway believed that pre-throttle body fueling is a better option for turbo cars, they would have left everything in place from the standard Pprotege and ran something like what you sell, only of their own design.

Callaway is the one who came with the most of the design using Mazda's designation of the Protege euro-diesel radiator intercooler. Everything else was Callaway.

Callaway was the one who said they didn't want to meet the Canadian warranty standards, but then grudgingly did.

Yes Mazda has a part in why the MSP came out the way it did, but Callaway played a larger role in that.

The Mazdaspeed Miata is an in-house project. I think you will see a much bigger difference there in quality and reliability.

 

[PaulMP3]

I thought it has been said that msp and protege injectors are the same size (confused)

 

[MP3skaterNC]

They are, calloway wanted to drop in bigger ones.

 

[70]

They are, calloway wanted to drop in bigger ones.

I thought Turboge had said they were larger...

 

[MPNick]

Callaway also used larger injectors in the stock location for the MSP (340cc vs 320cc).

THe MSP and the other 2.0 Protege have the same injectors. Not sure why people talk about them not being the same. I have a MSP at the shop right now, it is getting a "tune up". I have the injectors off of them. The part numbers on the injectors and the color is all the same as any other Protege I have seen.

I think it is just another internet story one bad, much like the extra injectors.


Thanks again

Later.........Nick

 

[MPNick]

I just thought with that much power they didn't really care for a small loss, and drilling 10 holes in the mani would be kind of painfull.

Thanks for your answers.
Vik.

They are making over 100 per cylinder to the rear wheels. The small loss would be a blown engine. Trust me when I tell you that we charge over $15,000 for one of our base Viper engines. They would not take any chance on blowing the engine with fuel mix problems.

How many Mazda street Protege's do you know that make over 400hp to the wheels? This would be the same as the Viper. On the Viper we hide the NOS under the intake manifold. The same could be done with the injectors is it had to be done.


Thanks again


Later...........Nick

 

[MPNick]

I thought Turboge had said they were larger...

On the two MSP that I had my hands in they were the same as the stock Protege. I cannot speak for Turboge was looking at.


Thanks again


Later........Nick

 

[Bigg Tim]

I just thought with that much power they didn't really care for a small loss, and drilling 10 holes in the mani would be kind of painfull.

Anyways, hows the warranty on the MPI tuner? Notice in my sig, I'm waiting on the AEM. Here's the reason, the AEM looks to be a much cleaner and practical setup, and it makes a lot of sense. Controlling the fuel and timing is a bit different then manipulating what the ecu see's, to me it's a big deal.
In my work, I deal with 70 year old electrical designs, that have been manipulated and tricked with many times, and when I finnally figure out what they tried to achieve, I do a design to replace it all with a very simple and practical one.
Maybe I don't know enough info on the MPI or the piggybacks themselfs, I just think that they are a bit more rough of a solution.
I do know that I NEED Engine Management, I'm not man enough to run 10psi without it, I accidently hit 10.5 a couple of times and I think it feels too good to be safe.
There are a few options out-there, like Corksports ecu chip, and maybe AEM soon, and MPI tuner. So if AEM don't go thru I'll be asking you more questions.

Thanks for your answers.
Vik.

The MPI does not manipulate the ignition control!! The MPI controls the ignition, you cut the igniton wires and take them into the unit, not just tap into them.

 

[MPNick]

Anyways, hows the warranty on the MPI tuner? Notice in my sig, I'm waiting on the AEM. Here's the reason, the AEM looks to be a much cleaner and practical setup, and it makes a lot of sense. Controlling the fuel and timing is a bit different then manipulating what the ecu see's, to me it's a big deal.

Maybe I don't know enough info on the MPI or the piggybacks themselfs, I just think that they are a bit more rough of a solution.

There are a few options out-there, like Corksports ecu chip, and maybe AEM soon, and MPI tuner. So if AEM don't go thru I'll be asking you more questions.

Thanks for your answers.
Vik.

Our warranty is for one year. After the unit is tested by us and if we find it defective, we will replace our repair at no cost to the customer.

How does something that does not exsit in the real world look good to you? As of last week when I called AEM they told me flat out that they are not building any PnP unit for the Mazda. What do you think the cost would be to get a AEM unit, take it apart, then have a EEV-V male and female connector plug molded, then have all of the wires [105] installed and tested. I would think that the cost would be in the thousands of dollars and I do not think that a one man show can absorb that cost. Keep in mind that even if AEM does down the road build a system for Ford EEC-V, it is not the same set up as the one used in the Mazda. Plus you still have a system that is not legal. AEM builds these systems to be a stand alone only system.

The game is controlling the spark and fuel. We get the job done with two hours of work to install the system at a cost for $675.00, add $345.00 for the extra injectors. If this is not your way of tuning then spend $1,500.00 for a system, plus $400.00 for injectors, thousand of dollars for dyno tuning and never take you car to inspection. I still think that you will have problems with fuel wash with the big injectors. Someone posted about a month ago that he lost compression from running rich with a parallel system and big injectors. People are always talking about cold starting problems with big injectors and after market sysetms, even Terry from Spool has posted that they had starting problems in the cold.

How does your car start and idle now? That is the same way it will start and idle with our MPI Tuner. Because we are not taking the tens of millions of dollars of testing and tuning that Mazda did in RD and throw it out the window. We only make our changes when we are in boost. Why change the whole computer if you are only in boost less then 10% of the time you are driving the car? The OEM system build today are more powerful and any aftermarket system you can ever buy. Learn to control it and you have the best of both worlds.


Thanks again


Later........Nick

 

[igdrasil]

CAllaway did not did the programming on the mazdaspeed ecu, he just did the turbo kit.

 

[MPNick]

They are, calloway wanted to drop in bigger ones.

They are what? They are not different then any other injector used on any other 2.0 Protege. I do not what size the 2.0 Protege has for sure but they are not any bigger.


Thanks again


Later...............Nick

 

[igdrasil]

The MPI does not manipulate the ignition control!! The MPI controls the ignition, you cut the igniton wires and take them into the unit, not just tap into them.

And Its already released and being used by some people on this forum!

Lets not say its a perfect unit, I dont know cause I dont have it, but for sure, nor the AEM will be.

Also ask some people that has the haltech running, E6K, F10, E6X...they all have their issues.

Dont take my word, just ask people around.