MPI Tuner Anyone?

[Micah]

lol - look who's talking again!!!! Good to see Perf and MPNick behaving.

 

[KzA]

dont get them started micah..

 

[Bigg Tim]

Yeah you furry little ape, shut your pie hole.(lol2) J/K!!!!! (thumb)

 

[MPNick]

It hits the floor because it cant read over or under 14.7. It is designed to read a stoich mixture only.
Above it you dont know if its 14:1 or 10:1. NB sensors do not have a rich calibration.

If the OEM sensor cannot read above or below 14.7 how does it know to pull fuel or add fuel???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.


Thanks again


Later....Nick

 

[hukster00]

if the car works off the o2 and not the maf y dosent the afc work on the o2 sing isntead of the maf ?

 

[MPNick]

if the car works off the o2 and not the maf y dosent the afc work on the o2 sing isntead of the maf ?

The EEC-V works off of alot of inputs. In closed loop it gives the O2 more of the control of the fuel curve. The MPI Tuner will take almost all of the inputs and make the changes that it needs to keep the fuel and spark where it needs to be.


Thanks again


Later.............Nick

 

[perfworks]

If the OEM sensor cannot read above or below 14.7 how does it know to pull fuel or add fuel???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.


Thanks again


Later....Nick

Nick, You cant be serious. NB sensors only read STOICH. They are designed to sample and compare atmospheric conditions with the burned hydrocarbons in the exhaust system. The O2 cycles because the ECU, load, rpm, coolant temp, ignition timing, etc directly affect A/F ratio. At the point where the O2 is "off" 14.7:1 for gasoline engines, the ECU adds and subracts fuel to make the O2 "cross" the stoich point continuously. AKA cross counts.
IT KNOWS how much fuel to add and subtract based on preprogrammed fuel curves, correction maps along with learned strategys. It uses these parameters and closed loop feedback for proper management.
My 2 1/2 cents

 

[MPNick]

Nick, You cant be serious. NB sensors only read STOICH. They are designed to sample and compare atmospheric conditions with the burned hydrocarbons in the exhaust system. The O2 cycles because the ECU, load, rpm, coolant temp, ignition timing, etc directly affect A/F ratio. At the point where the O2 is "off" 14.7:1 for gasoline engines, the ECU adds and subracts fuel to make the O2 "cross" the stoich point continuously. AKA cross counts.
IT KNOWS how much fuel to add and subtract based on preprogrammed fuel curves, correction maps along with learned strategys. It uses these parameters and closed loop feedback for proper management.
My 2 1/2 cents

What about all of your post's where the O2 is pulling fuel? What about the O2 clamps? Preprogramed fuel and timing curves are based on stock air flow limits with very little room for more. The ECU needs to have O2 feedback in order know if it must add or remove fuel. The O2 is not the only part of it but in closed loop when you are only adding fuel with the stock injectors you will be fighting the O2 all of the time.

If it works like you now have posted the O2 is not doing much at all. In the EEC-V car you can get a systen lean or system rich code if you tune to far one way or the other. If the O2 cannot read this you would never have the codes.

Go back a few weeks and read the post's that you made. You will see that the O2 is completely in charge of fuel in closed loop. I am not saying that the post's back then were 1005 right. I would say that a fews weeks later the same person is posting things that are not the same.

In the modern cars the O2 sensors may be NB. They are FR sensors, how do you think OBDII works. We are not talking about old one wire O2 sensors from the early 80s. The new O2s cost up to $500.00. On the Audi turbos there ran lean all of the time. The newer Nissans almost never go into open loop. More and more cars run that way. This is way we have the O2 tuning software. We can get any car to run pig rich in closed loop if we wanted it to.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

 

[perfworks]

What about all of your post's where the O2 is pulling fuel? What about the O2 clamps? Preprogramed fuel and timing curves are based on stock air flow limits with very little room for more. The ECU needs to have O2 feedback in order know if it must add or remove fuel. The O2 is not the only part of it but in closed loop when you are only adding fuel with the stock injectors you will be fighting the O2 all of the time.

If it works like you now have posted the O2 is not doing much at all. In the EEC-V car you can get a systen lean or system rich code if you tune to far one way or the other. If the O2 cannot read this you would never have the codes.

Go back a few weeks and read the post's that you made. You will see that the O2 is completely in charge of fuel in closed loop. I am not saying that the post's back then were 1005 right. I would say that a fews weeks later the same person is posting things that are not the same.

In the modern cars the O2 sensors may be NB. They are FR sensors, how do you think OBDII works. We are not talking about old one wire O2 sensors from the early 80s. The new O2s cost up to $500.00. On the Audi turbos there ran lean all of the time. The newer Nissans almost never go into open loop. More and more cars run that way. This is way we have the O2 tuning software. We can get any car to run pig rich in closed loop if we wanted it to.

Thanks again


Later..........Nick

I will comment directly and indirectly to this and other posts regarding this subject.
I think that you are confusing the facts.
Actually there are just too many misconceptions out there and I will try my hardest to clear them up for you.
My prior and current posts are still presenting the same arguement. The O2 sensor in closed loop is the main input used to control the engine.
The MAF and TPS are used to signify load . In this application. This together with RPM will allow the ECU to fuel the engine in all sites.

My above post suggests that the stock O2 sensor is used only as a closed loop tool for an efficient 14.7:1 A/F ratio.
That is fact
In closed loop the sensor will oscillate because the ECU is trying to maintain the ratio NOT the O2. The O2 feedback is used just for that Feedback. If the feedback is not where the ECU wants it to be in that particular drive cycle it will add and subract fuel accordingly.
I have never said that the O2 will pull the fuel directly. It indirectly pulls it via the ECU. The O2 is very powerful in closed loop. Thats all. Very simple.

***Preprogramed fuel and timing curves are based on stock air flow limits with very little room for more. The ECU needs to have O2 feedback in order know if it must add or remove fuel. The O2 is not the only part of it but in closed loop when you are only adding fuel with the stock injectors you will be fighting the O2 all of the time.***
This was your exact post from above.
This is what I have been saying from day 1. I am glad that you are realising the importance of this now. At first in the other threads you weren't "seeing it". As you put it.
This was our argument on the fact that you can only do so much with the MAF value in closed loop. As I have noticed recently you have also mentioned the need to "kick" it into open loop.
If you notice in your previous posts you had mentioned many many times that this didnt need to be done. Any way its done and I'm glad you are now on the right track.

Next,
Your argument about cost and the 4 wire sensors being better than the past sensors. Somewhat true, They are alot better. BUT cost has nothing to do with it. The reason this is true is because they are using a heater circuit to allow the sensor to reach optimal temp. THATS IT. They dont read any differently. The software that is used is telling you that you are running rich or lean. What do I mean by this. Your software in the piggy back is scaling the O2 signal (0-1 volt). It is saying for example that:
.5 is 14.7
.75 is 11:1
1.0 is 8 :1
And so on. The EECV is making its own conclusions based on sample rates it has been programmed to see in a controlled enviroment for a specific application. This cannot be used when tuning a FI vehicle. In fact it can't be used to tune ANY A/F ratio accurately in open loop.
The cross counts the O2 relays will always vary. It varys from many things I mentioned above, like, rpm, load ,tps, etc.
The ECU will continue to pull fuel until the counts go back to "normal" (lamens terms)
So you see the posts made months ago (not weeks) by myself and others are the same and just alot more informative now. I am allowing the enduser to understand why they need management and the kind they need.
You also mention the EECV . Yes the codes are present because it wants to make sure that sensors' inputs and outputs are correctly within parameters. That is how it relearns and troubleshoots for you. AKA Adaptive Strategies.
That is why you need to stay within certain MAF specs in closed loop so open loop mapping makes "sense"

If we didnt have guidelines then we could not properly configure our outputs to fuel and ignite the motor Nick.
If anyhting has changed it seems to be those who were misinformed about the facts. NB sensors work well to help closed loop cruise conditions. To expect it to "save" the day when tuning for performance? Its never going to happen.

 

[Kooldino]

If the OEM sensor cannot read above or below 14.7 how does it know to pull fuel or add fuel???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.


Thanks again


Later....Nick

Well, it can accurately read above and below 14.7, but not much. high 13's to high 15's or so.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

Well, is that true? Is it a limit to the min/max it can read? Or a limit to the resolution it can read? perfworks post with the 0-1v seems to say it can go down to 11, but the resolution is very low. Thus you can't see fluctuations very well... Thats how I read it at least.

Chris

 

[Speedy]

perfworks:

So when is your system going to come out to slove our problem? Can you give an idea when?

 

[perfworks]

perfworks:

So when is your system going to come out to slove our problem? Can you give an idea when?

HOLD on, i am not jacking anyones thread. I am not on here to do that. I am merely pointing out some things that are important when tuning your vehicle. The consumer needs to be informed. That is all. I am not going to turn this into who is better and such. The product we are coming with will be out soon. Within weeks is all I can say. I will post my own thread for that.

 

[DooMer_MP3]

HOLD on, i am not jacking anyones thread. I am not on here to do that. I am merely pointing out some things that are important when tuning your vehicle. The consumer needs to be informed. That is all. I am not going to turn this into who is better and such. The product we are coming with will be out soon. Within weeks is all I can say. I will post my own thread for that.

Yeah, dont open that can of worms! perfworks is not talking about his product anywhere in here. He is simply questioning the use of a NB O2 sensor to tune.

Chris

 

[perfworks]

Well, it can accurately read above and below 14.7, but not much. high 13's to high 15's or so.

Dana,
It CANT read anything other than a stoich mixture accurately. THAT is why it is ignored in open loop.
To say 13's or 15's is a guess on the particular application.
The software on any ECU will scale the voltage differently. It will set rich or lean codes based on longevity in that state. NOT actual voltage.

 

[perfworks]

Well, is that true? Is it a limit to the min/max it can read? Or a limit to the resolution it can read? perfworks post with the 0-1v seems to say it can go down to 11, but the resolution is very low. Thus you can't see fluctuations very well... Thats how I read it at least.

Chris

Doomer it canb only read Stoich.
That is its max
The 0-1 volt parameter I mention is an example only. Every software and ENGINE application will scale differently. It is hard to understand if you have never calibrated a unit for an engine.
The A/F ratio of 11 you mention is not accurate on a NB. It is a guess by the software and the tuner. Now if you are using a WB and can somehow calibrate the NB with your software then you will be closer. But that closeness will be 13.5 for rich and 16 for lean. AND thats a big maybe

 

[Bigg Tim]

So if it can only read soich, how does the computer know when to change the fuel curve? It has to see a richer or more lean condition from the O2 to change the fuel right?

 

[MPNick]

Dana,
It CANT read anything other than a stoich mixture accurately.

That is not what you posted last night. Your post was that it would only read stoich[14.7]. This is the problem wiyh your post. The NB O2 will read almost the same range as most WBs. It is little less accurate as the WB but it will still read the full range.

The OEM O2 sensors work fine for what we are doing. Keep in mind that they are used on many high HP turbo cars from the factory.

Thanks again

Later.........Nick

 

[perfworks]

That is not what you posted last night. Your post was that it would only read stoich[14.7]. This is the problem wiyh your post. The NB O2 will read almost the same range as most WBs. It is little less accurate as the WB but it will still read the full range.

The OEM O2 sensors work fine for what we are doing. Keep in mind that they are used on many high HP turbo cars from the factory.

Thanks again

Later.........Nick

Please dont take this wrong BUT Nick come on that is silly.
I am trying to have a logical discussion with people on this forum.
Please stop trying to prove me wrong and concentrate on the facts. I'll clarify one more time, then i will leave it be.
Timm and Mpnick,

- The stock O2 ONLY reads Stoich (atmospheric conditions)
- Thus it is not accuarte above or below 14.7:1 A/F ratios.
- The O2 chemically reacts with the burned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. The ECU will add and subtract fuel till the O2 oscilates continuously.
- It is only used in closed loop. Because in closed loop it can be used to maintain the efficient catalyst in the converter for emmisions.
-THAT is why it is ignored in OPEN loop.
-In open loop the values are based on preprogrammed values from the ORIGINAL application it was designed for.
-WB O2's sample quicker and thru a ionic pull of oxygen molecules.
-It reads UP to 80:1 A/F ratios accuarately
(I will post alot more details in my WB thread so as not to clutter this one with useful information)

Timm,
The computer changes the CLOSED loop fueling via O2 cross counts. The quiucker or more times the O2 crosses (oscilates) past 14.7 the better. When at a constant load and engine speed the ECU maintanis 14.7 : 1 because it can pull and add less fuel alot easier. It has MORE TIME. Under acceleration it is guessing. So in closed loop, partial throttle , and maybe boost for some vehicles, the ECU is PULLING fuel. Because the O2 is not "crossing" as it should.
The voltage above 14.7 A/F ratios (.5) is concidered rich by the ECU
The voltage Below 14.7 A/F ratios (.5) is concidered lean. NOT how much BUT LEAN OR RICH. That is why your OBDII says lean or rich code NOT a numerical figure to how much.

Nick, yes many FI high HP vehicles use the NB O2. ONLY in closed loop. The rest of the fueling is already programmed for the original application, boost pressure ETC. Once modifications are made that is why you need to adjust via piggy or reflash.
IT IS NEVER USED IN OPEN LOOP, or any performance drive cycle.
Thus you dont use a NB sensor to tune.
I will answer any more questions for anyone in the WB thread under the FI section ONLY from now on.
Good day.

 

[Kooldino]

Well, is that true? Is it a limit to the min/max it can read? Or a limit to the resolution it can read? perfworks post with the 0-1v seems to say it can go down to 11, but the resolution is very low. Thus you can't see fluctuations very well... Thats how I read it at least.

Chris

Read my post again...note i said "accurately" read.