=-=-=-=-Modern Performance Inc. Turbo Kit-=-=-=-=

[Little Beavis]

I'm not actually trying to argue, although it may sound like it. I'm just trying to understand (for my benefit). How can the injectors shut off well before you are off the throttle. . .you would be going lean then. . .no? Even if the injectors didn't shut off and the throttle plate closes, the fuel would vent (unless you're recirculating), and the idle would return to normal anyway. So, I'm not getting the picture.

Also with the intake, we all know cars end up with one cylinder that is leaner or different than the others, so that will always be the case, because it won't be perfect. So, at least one cylinder is going to be "leaner" than the others. Unless you are on the ragged line of having problems, you will not have any issues as a result of this, but the a/f in the cylinders will not be "perfect". Again, it doesn't matter really, I'm just getting hung up on a small detail.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick, I just get "fixated" when I don't understand something completely. It really isn't that important anyway, the system works! I don't doubt that and I'm not trying to say that there is a problem, I'm just trying to understand. . .sorry if I'm retarded. . .

 

[Micah]

nah man, you're not retarded. Trust me, I obsess over all kinds of stuff. I've got 792GB of storage at home that can prove this quite well.

Ok, here's how it works. Basically, the extra injectors do not come on until the load is increased. On my car right now, we are using the TPS to determine this. The piggyback can use the Mass Air Meter to do this also. This is where tuning and engine management are crucial. We spent many days driving around in my car. Both on the highway at 50-110mph, and around town doing simple things like starting from a stop over and over, and driving through parking lots, neighborhoods, and just basically dealing with traffic. We watched to see where the boost came on under all these conditions and then tuned the auxilliary fuel injectors accordingly. As the Boost increases, so does the fuel injectors addition of fuel. Of course, as the Boost decreases, the fuel injectors add less fuel.

As an example, lets say the extra injectors don't come on until you are pushing down about 35% on the throttle, then they increase the further down you push. As you let off the throttle, the injectors will gradually decrease pressure until you hit that same 35% where they will stop. We can set the injectors to come on whenever we want, and turn off whenever we want. If you look at the screenshot, each one of those boxes represents an opportunity for us to control those injectors.

Think of my car as a Stage I/Hybrid. Because we are constantly testing, parts get swapped on and off my car. Right now we are waiting on mounting the tranny cooler, and we have the 980cfm Spal Fan on my car (Nothing wrong with the stock fan, but I'm keeping the Spal fan - it's great).

Trust me, the car isn't running lean, when you get off the gas, the recirculation vents off the pressure and the injectors shut off. I'm going to try to make some mpegs for drivability so people can see how it is. But, in a word - fun!

Also, I love the power my engine has, I wish the tranny could hold it - I really do. So now I've started looking at www.levelten.com and I'm thinking of saving up for something nice. Yes, I know it would be cheaper for me to do a MT swap, but I think I'd like to see what can be done with the AT. Still, this is all just me thinking - not sure exactly what direction I'm going to take my own car in. The fact is, I do have bills to pay, and I like taking road trips to see my friends all over the country and in Canada. These things take cash, and they might just hold a slightly higher priority for me as opposed to playing with my car. But I gotta tell you, with the sport shift function of the tranny, I have been starting to use it. I've found that if I go through the gears, and back off the throttle , then shift - and then get back on the throttle, it feels very much like a stick being driven quite well.

Well, I'll be up for a little while longer - any questions - post them or PM me. I'm going to finish watching 25th Hour, and then fall asleep.

 

[Micah]

do you have any pics of the extra injectors and where they are located?? How long is KZA car gonna be there for, i would like to come check it out.

KzA's car will likely be done this weekend, probably tommorrow. I'll try to take some pics of my setup, although I'd like to clean things up a bit first. I'd like to repaint my pipes before I show everyone. Little details like wire looks and stuff, just want to give it a nicer OEM look. KzA is a bit more concerned with keeping things looking nice than I am. He made a really nice custom mount for his LCD, and he is working on a custom gauge pod. He's got talent with Fiberglass, and webdesign. I'm sure he's going to have plenty of pics up when he gets his car back.

 

[Little Beavis]

I see the light now. . .thanks a ton! You da man. . .no you are the man. . .no. . .damnit, bedtime.

 

[Bigg Tim]

What's up people! I have the have one of the stages from modern performance on my car, but I still have some tuning to do. I guess my kit is in between the stage 2 and 3. I don't live up there, I live in MD so I can't just drive over there and have Nick do his thing, so things are going a little slower for me, but hopefully Saturday, I should be tuned and ready to go. I have been driving it a little, but I haven't really went over 5 PSI (The MAP is done yet) so I can't tell you how much power it has. I do have some PRELIMINARY pics of what I got. Here's the link:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289551435

Please don't look too hard at the paint on the piping, it's just until I get things running PERFECT. When I have it all tuned, I will be getting them powder coated and anodized look. Some of the things are temp also, like the coolant line. I plan on having everything neatend up once it's done and I will post the new ones here on a new thread. PaulMP3, you can see how the injectors are mounted in one of the pics. Like I said, I will post on a new thread after I have Nick dyno tune it in a couple of weeks. I will take a lot of new pics and update my album later. I do not have a pic of the bigger mass air yet. Here is what I have:

FM Mainfold
Garret T3/T4 Hybrid (.48a/r and super 57 comp)
Whatever size intercooler Micah has
Two 45lb injectors before the TB
85mm Mass Air Sensor
Nick's Piggyback
Full 3" mandrel bent exhaust with his polished bullet muffler

I think that's all I have. I plan on going forged later. I think this will give everyone a good idea of what his kit's will look like. Please remember, mine is not done yet, I didn't want them to paint my pipes, I wanted to take care of that so thiers will be much nicer than mine are now. Nick is very oriented with detail, so you will not be getting a bad kit. Mine is not a "Standard" stage so yours will be a little different.

Micah, sorry to put this here, but I haven't started a new thread yet. I was only trying to show everyone the injector setup and got carried away. Sorry to everyone else also. NOW back to Nick's kit!

 

[Micah]

Hey Timm, that's great - I appreciate you posting your pics. My setup looks a bit differint, but until I get my pics up, yours is a great aid to forum members who would like to get an idea of what we are doing.

I believe that Mass Air you have is the 80mm. I have the intercooler from the Stage I, I believe you have the larger intercooler from Stage II. I originally had the larger intercooler, but we were not happy with the fitment on the ES.

I'll try to post more later, but the s*** has all but literally hit the fan at work right now thanks to the power outages. I'm currently working with Worldcom to restore DSL and T1 service. Fun Fun Fun.

 

[BlueMP5Dave]

Are those price for Forged internals installed? 1895 sounds decent good to see this kit again. Glad to see your car is running Micah. Definitly send our condolences to Nick he seems like a great guy.

 

[KzA]

Oh yesss its the end of the day on Friday anddd my car is ALMOST THERE! We got the turbo bolted on and finished, the intercooler finished, the radiator instaled with the stockfan(although it needed a small amount of notching on the housing). The piggyback is wired and the pipework has began. I left the shop at like 4 today(football practice), so I dont know whatgot done before after I left. Nick was hoping to get the car started before the night was through, so that tommorow we tune!

Piggy piggy piggy cant you see? I need more fuel to ROMP on the MSP..

 

[Bigg Tim]

Awww come on man, T1's aren't that big of a deal to get back up, the phone Co. has all the work to do all you have to do is to test it and resync your equip but the waiting is the hard part.

So you did change the intercooler, that's good, the bigger one was jammed in there with a shoe horn. Get that camera out and take some pics man, everyone would like to see how she looks. There are few auto guys out there that would really benifit with some eye candy to help make thier decision. Later!

 

[WShade]

Will you sell me the Spal 980cfm Cooling Fan? Which model number is it? Is it a direct replacement or do you have to modify the shroud and plug?

 

[Micah]

I wasn't there when they mounted the fan, so I really don't know for sure. I'll get some pics though. I promise.

Tommorrow I have to help my friend lift a couch to a 2nd floor apartment deck sliding glass window. Because it won't fit up the stairs. I ought to have someone video tape this. Gonna be funny as hell watching me and 3 or 4 of my friends figuring this one out.

After that I have a BBQ to attend, so my car will FINALLY be getting washed. I've put it off long enough, hell - more than long enough. I figure I'll give it a decent wash tommorrow, just so it doesn't look dirty, then I'll give it another wash before the Ocean County Park meet on the 31st, and I'll do a nice job with 2 or 3 coats of wax then.

oh, back to the fan - yeah - you will need to just strip the wires for the stock fan harness, trust me - not hard to do at all.

Joe, I can't wait to see your car. Damn you and your Manual Tranny. You are so lucky - can't wait till Nick M. has it tuned.

Oh, and I talked to Nick(Perfworks) today, he wanted me to thank everyone for their kind words.

 

[Micah]

Will you sell me the Spal 980cfm Cooling Fan? Which model number is it? Is it a direct replacement or do you have to modify the shroud and plug?

I've got to talk to Nick M. about pricing on the fan. He's got a Merkur XR4Ti thing this weekend, As soon as I know, I'll update the pricing chart and add it to the options.

 

[Kooldino]

If other kit manufacturers do it, kewl - if not - maybe they will figure out something better. I'm not proud, I'll learn whatever I can, and use it whereever I can.

Speaking of which, Tripoint came out w/ a kit back in the day that utilized extra injectors. No one ever bought the kit, so we never knew how it worked out. :-(

 

[Kooldino]

I don't want to be a kid with a stick, but I've always heard that injectors "up stream" is not the way to go as you cannot guarantee full or accurate mixing (bad work choice, but I can't think right now). I'm sure this system is good. . .obviously it is working, so I'm not saying it is bad.

Anyway, basically you cannot guarantee that enough fuel gets to each cylinder. Mind you this was PhD Engineers that sleep and eat motors, but that could also mean they are TOO damn anal and were fretting over a 1% variation. However, they always said that using an injector per cylinder is the way to go. I think this is a great development for us and am considering it myself (along with a bunch of others). So, we're all hungry for knowledge. . .keep up the good trail of info!

Also, how do you turn off the injectors before the throttle plate closes. . .can't really delay the throttle plate (cable), but if the injectors are close, the electronics will be the mechanical cable action.

Oh well. . .<pop> there goes another balloon. . .I'm a bastard and I know it.

Love the setup though. Keep the information coming!

THAT was the point I made a few months back. Again, it's better than an FMU, but it's not perfect. One extra injector in each runner would be nice, but I dunno if the piggyback could control that.

 

[Micah]

yeah, Nick could control that. Just a matter of wiring it up. Dana, are you looking to do something like this?

Might want to turn that boost up a little bit, I'm running 8 psi on my auto. To be fair, the Auto kits won't be using the same setup I am. Most people don't have the self control not to stomp on the pedal all the time. The stock AT in my car was fine until I started getting on it. At 5-6 psi (right where you are at) it pulled nicely, and shifted fine. But, like everyone told me, boost is addictive - so I started getting on the throttle more, and I now hit 8 psi when I want to pass someone.

The tranny however, does not like this much boost, and it will slip. I really don't have an issue with it, if I want to stomp on the gas, I just knock the tranny into auto stick so that it stays in gear. As long as I do that, and let off the throttle before I shift - the car is fine. If I try to shift while I am still on the throttle at 8 psi, it doesn't go into gear, the revs are too high. I've only done it like twice while tuning with Nick M. in the car. We both agree that the T3 @ 8 psi, is too much power for us to put in the Stage I. The smaller turbo is better suited to a stage I, you'll have a faster spool up also.

Me, I can hold off the urge to stomp on it, plus, we'll be mounting the IHI on my car in the next few weeks to create fuel maps for the kits anyway.

 

[Bigg Tim]

WShade, The fan I have in my car from the kit says "type VA09-AP50/C-27A" Hope this helps. It comes with hangers and all I had to do was to makes some bends to get the 2 up top to line up with the stock hole and just put a tye wrap on the bottom since the stock fan didn't have any bolts on the bottom. I'll get some pics later.

It's in there solid. There are 2 wires on the fan a black (ground) and a blue (positive). you cut off the connector on the car and the new fan then hook up the blue from the fan to the yellow of the stock harness and to black of the fan to the black w/white of the stock harness. It's real simple and nice and slim.

 

[WShade]

WShade, The fan I have in my car from the kit says "type VA09-AP50/C-27A" Hope this helps. It comes with hangers and all I had to do was to makes some bends to get the 2 up top to line up with the stock hole and just put a tye wrap on the bottom since the stock fan didn't have any bolts on the bottom. I'll get some pics later.

It's in there solid. There are 2 wires on the fan a black (ground) and a blue (positive). you cut off the connector on the car and the new fan then hook up the blue from the fan to the yellow of the stock harness and to black of the fan to the black w/white of the stock harness. It's real simple and nice and slim.

Thanks man! If you could get the pictures when you have a moment I would be most appreciative(thumb)

 

[Kooldino]

yeah, Nick could control that. Just a matter of wiring it up. Dana, are you looking to do something like this?

Possibly. But I was told there may be some trouble with it before.

Might want to turn that boost up a little bit, I'm running 8 psi on my auto.

Umm. Do you know anything about running 8psi w/o any management? Take a poll of the success rates of guys w/ stock engines and an FMU running over 6psi.

 

[KzA]

he piggytback controls up to 4 extra injectors, but damn..Can you wallet control that? Talk about a freakin pig...

Its saturdaymornin and i just got home from football(ouch I hurt)...I am tryin to get a ride up to longbranch and hopefully pick up my car today YAY!

 

[LinuxRacr]

I just spen the last 45 minutes catching up on this thread. Nick, sorry for the loss man. Please give me a call to discuss some "help" with my setup.