Mazdaspeed 3 / 6 K04 Turbo Upgrade - 330WHP!!!

[cpolly69]

ok thats all fine an good, but, what i said was... why spend that much on that when BASICALLY for 600 you will get the almost the SAME gain from just a rebuilt turbo from PG? and if i was gonna spend that much on that, i'd say **** it an opt for the gt28 in the first place. not much bigger than the k04...

this is what you get for $600 from PG-
Ported and Polished Housings
- Larger Billet Aluminum Lightweight Compressor Wheel
- Clipped Turbine Wheel
- Teardown and rebuild including new seals, new bearings

these guys are are totally talking about all the internal parts not just these that's why it cost $1100 not to mention it will perform like a totally different turbo while the PG's will perform like a better K04

and if you are gonna say **** it and get a gt2871 it's about $1450 and don't forget your inlet pipe will not fit that so you need one of those too @$200 so now you're up to $1650 and to top it off lots of vac lines and other fun stuff must be changed around and unless you really know what you are doing it's not easy - where as the other 2 will change over everything

keep this in mind too - you could prob run the PG K04 on the stock ecu and maybe this new one but you definitely aren't gonna do that gt28w/out tuning

so at each level of performance you are getting what you pay for as long as this new project works out with all the ms3's other problems

 

[cpolly69]

and by the way the gt2871 may not be much "bigger" but it's moving air in a whole new way compared to the k04- you will make more hp at lower boost levels with it or any of the bigger better garrett gt turbos and they are all still capable of making more boost then the k04 even the 2871

 

[ericrapp]

That is the cool factor. Being able to run the stock ecu. With an internal wastegate. And gaining extra performance for a reasonable price. you are correct that going bigger will take much more than just a turbo bolt up. IMHO

 

[cpolly69]

That is the cool factor. Being able to run the stock ecu. With an internal wastegate. And gaining extra performance for a reasonable price. you are correct that going bigger will take much more than just a turbo bolt up. IMHO

that's why this this is getting excitement on 2 forums - and it would be definitely cool to just bolt up -

 

[ericrapp]

Yes it is a step up but limited as you mentioned. since before i purchased my car i have considered going to a bigger unit and all the advantages that an appropriate tune could provide. But i am naive to the ECU and using MAF inputs. Being new to the boosted world, and having a car i am making payments on still. I will have to wait a bit to step up. although i am not going to take this k04 upgrade path. I will wait and see how these mods work themselves out in the long run. And i hope the PG upgrade does well.

 

[essejkcamraw]

this is what you get for $600 from PG-
Ported and Polished Housings
- Larger Billet Aluminum Lightweight Compressor Wheel
- Clipped Turbine Wheel
- Teardown and rebuild including new seals, new bearings

these guys are are totally talking about all the internal parts not just these that's why it cost $1100 not to mention it will perform like a totally different turbo while the PG's will perform like a better K04

and if you are gonna say **** it and get a gt2871 it's about $1450 and don't forget your inlet pipe will not fit that so you need one of those too @$200 so now you're up to $1650 and to top it off lots of vac lines and other fun stuff must be changed around and unless you really know what you are doing it's not easy - where as the other 2 will change over everything

keep this in mind too - you could prob run the PG K04 on the stock ecu and maybe this new one but you definitely aren't gonna do that gt28w/out tuning

so at each level of performance you are getting what you pay for as long as this new project works out with all the ms3's other problems

if im wanting to go crazy with power, yeah i would def opt for the gt28, why not? a couple of hundred bucks more you get all of the bigger turbo advantages without having the k04. 1200 bucks for some new parts on my stock k04 really? sorry doesn't seem worth it to me. as i said, 600 bucks with a reworked PG turbo you get virtually THE SAME GAIN with youre same ole stock k04. its not like your going to get this turbo rebuild and some how bolt it on an magically BAM! 350HP! no way, not possible. for that you're going to HAVE to get tuned to even come close to seeing those numbers. and the way these cars are tuned stock is just garbage in the first place. so of course im going to get retuned. with just intake inlet tbe an some other minor bolt ons the car runs like ass quite honestly and its cause these cars were tuned to be quick but most of all economical. which is garbage. im not saying i dont like my speed cause, I LOVE MY CAR. i bought this car over an sti and an evo, its just a fun car to drive, if you're modding this car with a budget or to go a cheaper route its set for an epic fail. it's SWEET companies are taking more interest in our cars unlike whereas COBB just jumping ship. which is why i wont support them, id rather spend my money on a cp-e standback system. a little more expensive but has a lot more potential. just my .02

 

[MSMS3]

i bought this car over an sti and an evo, its just a fun car to drive, if you're modding this car with a budget or to go a cheaper route its set for an epic fail.

Hey, what are your current mods? What are your plans?

 

[cpolly69]

if im wanting to go crazy with power, yeah i would def opt for the gt28, why not? a couple of hundred bucks more you get all of the bigger turbo advantages without having the k04. 1200 bucks for some new parts on my stock k04 really? sorry doesn't seem worth it to me. as i said, 600 bucks with a reworked PG turbo you get virtually THE SAME GAIN with youre same ole stock k04. its not like your going to get this turbo rebuild and some how bolt it on an magically BAM! 350HP! no way, not possible. for that you're going to HAVE to get tuned to even come close to seeing those numbers. and the way these cars are tuned stock is just garbage in the first place. so of course im going to get retuned. with just intake inlet tbe an some other minor bolt ons the car runs like ass quite honestly and its cause these cars were tuned to be quick but most of all economical. which is garbage. im not saying i dont like my speed cause, I LOVE MY CAR. i bought this car over an sti and an evo, its just a fun car to drive, if you're modding this car with a budget or to go a cheaper route its set for an epic fail. it's SWEET companies are taking more interest in our cars unlike whereas COBB just jumping ship. which is why i wont support them, id rather spend my money on a cp-e standback system. a little more expensive but has a lot more potential. just my .02

so you're saying we should all spend top of the line money on everything or not at all? most of the folks i know saying that and doing it spend most of their time rebuilding what ever they blew up last week - yeah i don't buy that at all - there's different levels of what you want achieve with your mods on this car and at each level there's quality parts and crap - some may want a little better then stock hp/performance - some may want big numbers - i personally don't see the point of more then about 300 or so (true mustang dyno) wheel hp on this car as it can't put it to the ground for crap on the stock drive train setup - you're not going to see me grabbing up parts from some hack that's been on the vendor section of a forum for a little while - but there's nothing wrong with a good company who's gotta a good solid rep for building turbos taking a stab at coming up with a real "bolt on" solution for the car's turbo - yeah it will prob. need tuning b/c with so much air it will prob wind up lean - but it will spool different then a reworked k04 and will probably have a different surgeline and may in fact move and shape the air differently then the stock or rewrked unit making a totally different hp curve on the car - it's a legitimate mid level mod and if it can be worked in combination with the ms3's vehicle specific problems i think it's great!

 

[essejkcamraw]

Hey, what are your current mods? What are your plans?

mods are injen CAI. HKS bpv. turboXS tbe. trz mm. rpmc turbo inlet. denso iridium plugs. and probably about to buy standback an a front mount. goals, none really. but i guess at MOST 300hp? mainly just wanted minor bolt ons and tune so it could be something that will move and be reliable. i dont track the car or race it. so its not something i go out an beat the piss out of. why do you ask?

so you're saying we should all spend top of the line money on everything or not at all? most of the folks i know saying that and doing it spend most of their time rebuilding what ever they blew up last week - yeah i don't buy that at all - there's different levels of what you want achieve with your mods on this car and at each level there's quality parts and crap - some may want a little better then stock hp/performance - some may want big numbers - i personally don't see the point of more then about 300 or so (true mustang dyno) wheel hp on this car as it can't put it to the ground for crap on the stock drive train setup - you're not going to see me grabbing up parts from some hack that's been on the vendor section of a forum for a little while - but there's nothing wrong with a good company who's gotta a good solid rep for building turbos taking a stab at coming up with a real "bolt on" solution for the car's turbo - yeah it will prob. need tuning b/c with so much air it will prob wind up lean - but it will spool different then a reworked k04 and will probably have a different surgeline and may in fact move and shape the air differently then the stock or rewrked unit making a totally different hp curve on the car - it's a legitimate mid level mod and if it can be worked in combination with the ms3's vehicle specific problems i think it's great!

touche!

 

[cpolly69]

you sound like all i ever wanted - which was all the bolt on parts and a good tune - i wouldn't even be looking at turbo idea until i discovered running catless kills your turbo seals - i am going to do a pg reworked and weld a cat back into my mid pipe - i don't think you can safely go catless on this car unless you go ball bearing turbo - you should check your seals - what's your car do with that tbe after you let it idle for 10 min with the ac on?

 

[essejkcamraw]

you sound like all i ever wanted - which was all the bolt on parts and a good tune - i wouldn't even be looking at turbo idea until i discovered running catless kills your turbo seals - i am going to do a pg reworked and weld a cat back into my mid pipe - i don't think you can safely go catless on this car unless you go ball bearing turbo - you should check your seals - what's your car do with that tbe after you let it idle for 10 min with the ac on?

as of right now, nothing. i have not had a problem with the tbe as of yet. except that the turboXS exhaust is just really loud. im thinking of getting an HKS exhaust and keep the turboXS DP/RP just to quiet it down a bit. i've had the a/c on an sitting at idle for a solid 45mins or so before. (florida humidity/heat sucks) while a buddy worked on a car before and had no problem. im dreading that sometime im going to start seeing some smoke though as i've heard of smoking turbo issues with full TBE (nailbyt)

 

[MSMS3]

mods are injen CAI. HKS bpv. turboXS tbe. trz mm. rpmc turbo inlet. denso iridium plugs. and probably about to buy standback an a front mount. goals, none really. but i guess at MOST 300hp? mainly just wanted minor bolt ons and tune so it could be something that will move and be reliable. i dont track the car or race it. so its not something i go out an beat the piss out of. why do you ask?

I was just wonder where you were in the mod process. Pretty close to where I am, maybe a bit more. I've not seen the need for an aftermarket BPV or an turbo inlet or even a rear motor mount, but put down some pretty respectable numbers with the CAI and catless DP/RP into stock CBE. - 5.1 seconds to 60, 0-100 is 11.5 plus or minus a tenth, and quarter at 13.4 all of stock ECU and stock wheels and tires.

I took care of the loudness and drone by welding a straight through reso in the middle of the RP. Worked great and no power loss.

I don't see a need for a turbo upgrade either at this point. But if I went that way it would be mild -- I don't want to lose low end torque/response and don't want any increased boost lag. The guys that want to go big turbo need to think hard about the fact that there's probably a 350 whp limit on reliability of our internals and on the rest of the drive train.

With you mods you are probably putting down about 270 whp or so which would be maybe 15% more at the crank, or about 300-310 at the crank. This is up about 45-50 horses over stock, wouldn't you think? That's pretty respectable and pretty close to your goal.

I disagree with those who say that running catless DP/RP's will shorten the life of the seals on our journal bearing K04. Will it maybe cause a bit of smoke if you sit a long time at idle? Maybe, sometimes. I sometimes see a little smoke on "take off" after sitting at idle in slow traffic, but it is infrequent and no more than with several other modded high boost catless DP/RP cars I've owned over the years, including some that had ball bearing shafts in the turbo. Most of my problems were solved with a catch can. There are other things that can be done to relieve oil pressure on the seals in the turbo without decreasing vital oil flow to the bearings, but that's beyond this thread.

I haven't seen the need for a tune and prefer to run rich and stay at stock boost, just as a safety measure. I'm not convinced there's a lot to be gained by leaning our our engines anyway, which is where we get most of the power gain from a tune.

I'm happy where I am. I might consider, way on down the road, a reworked K04. I did have a Garrett T-04 reworked on a SAAB I owned -- same sort of work as PG offers, and did see an improvement in performance at the high end of the power band without losing anything down low. I thought it was a good compromise and still do. The car had 75,000 miles on it and the turbo was starting to make some bearing noise (not smoking), so it was time to either rebuild it or replace it. The rebuild with the bigger compressor wheel and clipped turbine wheel, etc, was worth the work and was relatively inexpensive at the time (way cheaper than a new turbo) so I'm not ruling that out.

I'm just not sure about the plan to put modified Garrett internals in a modified K04 housing. We know what the PG upgrade can do. I'd want to wait and see some real world experience with this new proposed product. That's just the caution in me.

 

[mazdaspeed32007]

I was just wonder where you were in the mod process. Pretty close to where I am, maybe a bit more. I've not seen the need for an aftermarket BPV or an turbo inlet or even a rear motor mount, but put down some pretty respectable numbers with the CAI and catless DP/RP into stock CBE. - 5.1 seconds to 60, 0-100 is 11.5 plus or minus a tenth, and quarter at 13.4 all of stock ECU and stock wheels and tires.

do you have slips to show this? those are some incredible numbers dude. esp. withyour mod setup

 

[MSMS3]

do you have slips to show this? those are some incredible numbers dude. esp. withyour mod setup

Pretty normal actually for a good intake and opened up exhaust. Lots of guys running similar times. I'll try to pull up a slip and post. Best way to show all of the data, however especially 0-100 mph and other intermediate times, shift points and rpm relationships is with a good accelerometer that can also generate saved data and make charts from the data. The G-Tech Pro RR is very accurate and has been consistently within one tenth of a second of strip timers . It does read about one mph high on trap speed because it measures absolute quarter mile speed at the end, while the strip timers average the last 66 feet.

Here's some data from some typical runs in good weather back in April. Again, this is nothing much different than many others here with similar mods which can been seen in the posted time slips. Yeah, it shows traction problems hooking up in first and power shifts in third, fourth and fifth. Big, short duration spikes are electrical artifact (need better shielding of the wires to the accelerometer) and should be ignored.

Also, note that accelerometers measure under real world driving conditions and unlike a chassis dyno, show the powerful effect that aerodynamic drag has on pulling power down once you get above 60 mph. And it gets worse as speed increases.

BTW: You can replicate the time v. speed data manually and cheaply with just a simple stop watch. It's easy to do once you get into third and away from all the launch variables and have the ECU giving you full power.

 

[ericrapp]

i am stiil subscribed to this thread. the discussion is interesting and opinions and facts are tied well. The only comment i would have at this point is the theory of exhaust back pressure being maintained on the journal bearings. Not my exp. but it has been mentioned before, in other threads. That the K03, and 4 prefer back pressure for longevity. If i have to replace mine i would go with ball bearing regardless of sizing. i think that the opinions are that they will spool quicker due to even less mechanical resistance to make up for the lag that a slightly larger unit non BB unit would create.

 

[mazdaspeed32007]

Pretty normal actually for a good intake and opened up exhaust. Lots of guys running similar times. I'll try to pull up a slip and post. Best way to show all of the data, however especially 0-100 mph and other intermediate times, shift points and rpm relationships is with a good accelerometer that can also generate saved data and make charts from the data. The G-Tech Pro RR is very accurate and has been consistently within one tenth of a second of strip timers . It does read about one mph high on trap speed because it measures absolute quarter mile speed at the end, while the strip timers average the last 66 feet.

Here's some data from some typical runs in good weather back in April. Again, this is nothing much different than many others here with similar mods which can been seen in the posted time slips. Yeah, it shows traction problems hooking up in first and power shifts in third, fourth and fifth. Big, short duration spikes are electrical artifact (need better shielding of the wires to the accelerometer) and should be ignored.

Also, note that accelerometers measure under real world driving conditions and unlike a chassis dyno, show the powerful effect that aerodynamic drag has on pulling power down once you get above 60 mph. And it gets worse as speed increases.

BTW: You can replicate the time v. speed data manually and cheaply with just a simple stop watch. It's easy to do once you get into third and away from all the launch variables and have the ECU giving you full power.

not sure if this makes a diff but it says your vehicle weight is 3400 lbs. its more like 4200. 325whp with what people put down w twice the mods....im a bit weary but no need to convince me. nice times tho. id like to see it on a track.

 

[ericrapp]

i believe it is about 3400 with driver but an great performance i agree on stockers.

 

[MSMS3]

You have to tell the accelerometer the actual rolling weight. Car weighs around 3200 with a tank of gas, but otherwise empty. I weigh 180, plus there's a little junk in the glove box, so I dialed in 3400. I think that's pretty close.

I also put 6,000 rpm in as my shift point, although I shift at a tach indicated 5,500 rpm. Since these are power shifts in the upper gears, and it take a couple tenths to actually complete the shift, that's probably an accurate number. It only affects the shift light feature, which I keep turned off anyway.

I dial in the roll out for 12 inches, which is very important to accuracy since that is pretty close to shallow staging at the strip and can affect ET's by several tenths.

Not trying to sell accelerometers. I just find that a good one, set up properly and downloading and studying the data is one hell of a good tuning aid.

BTW: Peak whp on the rpm v. hp run was about 270, occurring at the beginning of third gear, before it got pulled down by aerodynamic drag - the later tall, short spikes are just artifact that happens during the power shifts - I need to shield the wires better.

Sorry. I accidentally hijacked the thread. I was just trying to point out that we can do pretty well with minor mods and that the PG turbo upgrade makes the most sense to me until we get reliable data on the new option being discussed.

 

[Speedkid]

what kind of dyno.

 

[essejkcamraw]

I was just wonder where you were in the mod process. Pretty close to where I am, maybe a bit more. I've not seen the need for an aftermarket BPV or an turbo inlet or even a rear motor mount, but put down some pretty respectable numbers with the CAI and catless DP/RP into stock CBE. - 5.1 seconds to 60, 0-100 is 11.5 plus or minus a tenth, and quarter at 13.4 all of stock ECU and stock wheels and tires.

I took care of the loudness and drone by welding a straight through reso in the middle of the RP. Worked great and no power loss.

I don't see a need for a turbo upgrade either at this point. But if I went that way it would be mild -- I don't want to lose low end torque/response and don't want any increased boost lag. The guys that want to go big turbo need to think hard about the fact that there's probably a 350 whp limit on reliability of our internals and on the rest of the drive train.

With you mods you are probably putting down about 270 whp or so which would be maybe 15% more at the crank, or about 300-310 at the crank. This is up about 45-50 horses over stock, wouldn't you think? That's pretty respectable and pretty close to your goal.

I disagree with those who say that running catless DP/RP's will shorten the life of the seals on our journal bearing K04. Will it maybe cause a bit of smoke if you sit a long time at idle? Maybe, sometimes. I sometimes see a little smoke on "take off" after sitting at idle in slow traffic, but it is infrequent and no more than with several other modded high boost catless DP/RP cars I've owned over the years, including some that had ball bearing shafts in the turbo. Most of my problems were solved with a catch can. There are other things that can be done to relieve oil pressure on the seals in the turbo without decreasing vital oil flow to the bearings, but that's beyond this thread.

I haven't seen the need for a tune and prefer to run rich and stay at stock boost, just as a safety measure. I'm not convinced there's a lot to be gained by leaning our our engines anyway, which is where we get most of the power gain from a tune.

I'm happy where I am. I might consider, way on down the road, a reworked K04. I did have a Garrett T-04 reworked on a SAAB I owned -- same sort of work as PG offers, and did see an improvement in performance at the high end of the power band without losing anything down low. I thought it was a good compromise and still do. The car had 75,000 miles on it and the turbo was starting to make some bearing noise (not smoking), so it was time to either rebuild it or replace it. The rebuild with the bigger compressor wheel and clipped turbine wheel, etc, was worth the work and was relatively inexpensive at the time (way cheaper than a new turbo) so I'm not ruling that out.

I'm just not sure about the plan to put modified Garrett internals in a modified K04 housing. We know what the PG upgrade can do. I'd want to wait and see some real world experience with this new proposed product. That's just the caution in me.

id say yes, its probably putting down around 270ish hp. the inlet to me, i thought was a great mod. opens up quite a bit of low end power as the turbo does spool up a little quicker. and the rear mm was just for some peace of mind that i wont have to worry about the stock mount failing cause of all the problems i read up on on the previous models before i purchased my car. so the MM was the first thing i ever bought for the car. then went on to intake. this car responds really well by just allowing it to breath better (intake system and exhaust) up next will be a front mount and then on to a tune, and wont ever touch her again cause im sure i'll be completely happy with how she runs after that.