Mazda Ice Academy: Trial By Ice And Snow CX-5, CX-3 And MX-5

[vroom]

What I want to know is what situations would a FWD CX-5 (or any CUV) fail with snow tires that an AWD with either all season or snow tires would succeed.

The only relevant video I've found is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA

Which basically showed to me that yes, most FWD cars will be just fine with winter tires except in the most extreme conditions.

I've always had FWD with good snow tires on in winter (snow tires are law here). The CX-5 is my first AWD. What i find most useful with AWD vs FWD is that I can start faster from a stop (at a light for example), and be the first in front of the pack of cars. I like being the first out front because it reduces the chances of being involved in a pile-up. AWD has also helped me climb my driveway in very slick conditions. The driveway is 90 degrees from the the road so it's hard to get a good moving start. On one occasion, my wife could not get up with her FWD Elantra with exactly the same tires while I could. Finally I find that AWD helps a bit with driving dynamics, reducing understeer for example, but you do need to develop proper and sometimes counter-intuitive driving reflexes for it to work.

All in all, the benefits of AWD vs FWD are subtle (the driveway situation only happened once in 3 years), and mostly add to the enjoyment of driving (I hate feeling my front wheels spin from a stop, even if in the end I always manage to get going anyway with FWD). Unless you live somewhere with harsh winter conditions, I think you would have done just fine with FWD, winter tires and lower MPGs.

 

[sillyxone]

I guess, I still go back to: in what situations would AWD work where FWD with Snow/Mud tires would not.

Actually the answer is already in the video you posted, the FWD Kuga with winter tires went up 110 meters, and the AWD with winter tires at the end made it over the top and seemed to be able to go around the course.

 

[MikeM.]

I think you misread my question, I've only mentioned winter tires through out to make AWD/FWD the only variable.

If AWD vs. FWD is the only variable, we can end this part of the discussion right here (obviously AWD adds climbing and acceleration capability when it's slick).

Just wondering if I could have purchased a FWD CX-5 with winter tires and save some MPG

We have gone over this a number of times.

Yes, most people will be just fine with FWD and winter tires. You will have better MPG, lower purchase price, lower servicing costs and better passing performance. I cannot say most people will be just fine with AWD and all-season radials, not for use on snow/ice covered roads. Yes, I got by for a number of years on my personal vehicles with all seasons but not everyone will be so lucky. All it takes is one minor snow incident with a small dent in your bumper or bodywork to pay off the cost of a winter tire/wheel set. And we won't even talk about the worth of your loved ones.

Traffic can move very fast when there is only a risk of ice and winter tires provide a much bigger safety margin against death and maiming and loss of vehicle. AWD does not.

 

[MikeM.]

I've always had FWD with good snow tires on in winter (snow tires are law here).

That's a good law because otherwise other drivers are jeopardizing YOUR life because they don't want the expense of properly equipping their vehicle. And there's a good reason why they require winter tires and not AWD.

 

[MikeM.]

True.

I guess, I still go back to: in what situations would AWD work where FWD with Snow/Mud tires would not.

Never put Mud/snow tires in the same category as winter tires. Two completely different things. Most M/S tires have WORSE snow/ice performance than all season radials. Of course it depends upon the specific winter condition being compared but, in general, M/S tires perform very marginally. They are good for mud, wet grass or clay, not cold pavement or black ice.

 

[MikeM.]

An AWD CX5 with winter tires it the best of the best. (headbang)

Nope, not even close.

AWD with winter tires and snow chains is the best of the best. The question is, how much do you really need? Most people will not be climbing Pikes Peak after the first big winter storm of the year. Hence my claim that most people will be fine with FWD and winter tires.

 

[jhu8]

Nope, not even close.

AWD with winter tires and snow chains is the best of the best. The question is, how much do you really need? Most people will not be climbing Pikes Peak after the first big winter storm of the year. Hence my claim that most people will be fine with FWD and winter tires.

Goddamn man, you find a way to disagree with EVERYONE. You totally got Lbear's point(which is relatively true) and yet you still claim he/she is wrong with yet another rambling point of yours. I appreciate your insight on a lot of things on this forum but you really don't miss any chance to argue and disagree with someone here.

 

[madar]

Wow, what a thread! Really had my heart set on another new FWD CX5, really looking at the AWD models now...

 

[vroom]

Nope, not even close.

AWD with winter tires and snow chains is the best of the best. The question is, how much do you really need? Most people will not be climbing Pikes Peak after the first big winter storm of the year. Hence my claim that most people will be fine with FWD and winter tires.

I'm going with Lbear here. Chains will hamper braking in the vast majority of circumstances because metal has a much lower friction coefficient than rubber (especially winter tire rubber) on anything dry. So in the 99.9% of the time that you're not climbing a snowy, icy, unkept mountain pass, AWD + winter tires are the best (headbang)

 

[vroom]

That's a good law because otherwise other drivers are jeopardizing YOUR life because they don't want the expense of properly equipping their vehicle. And there's a good reason why they require winter tires and not AWD.

Yep, they don't even make the distinction between FWD and AWD in the law. It's winter tires between December 15 and March 15 or you get a nice juicy ticket. And for those of you planning to visit our great province in winter, there are no exceptions for tourists and rental cars.

 

[MikeM.]

Goddamn man, you find a way to disagree with EVERYONE. You totally got Lbear's point(which is relatively true) and yet you still claim he/she is wrong with yet another rambling point of yours.

I guess I believe "best of the best" should mean something. So shoot me.

I appreciate your insight on a lot of things on this forum but you really don't miss any chance to argue and disagree with someone here.

Do I need to point out that's exactly what you're doing with your meaningless post. Don't take things so seriously, we are just comparing the relative merits of different winter driving aids.

 

[MikeM.]

Chains will hamper braking in the vast majority of circumstances because metal has a much lower friction coefficient than rubber (especially winter tire rubber) on anything dry. So in the 99.9% of the time that you're not climbing a snowy, icy, unkept mountain pass, AWD + winter tires are the best

No. Chains are removed for bare pavement. They are only for snow/ice covered roads when you need the extra capability.

 

[caverunner17]

Nope, not even close.

AWD with winter tires and snow chains is the best of the best. The question is, how much do you really need? Most people will not be climbing Pikes Peak after the first big winter storm of the year. Hence my claim that most people will be fine with FWD and winter tires.

Since you mentioned it....

This is my dilemma. Pikes Peak in the winter? No. But I am moving to CO this summer. A number of the trailheads in the mountains are off of dirt county roads. I'm not talking about all-terrain, but dirt roads with a little snow and ice. Like this

I haven't had much of an issue with a FWD Economy Sedan in the summer with all season tires, outside of ground clearance. But I don't really want to limit myself to hiking in June-August. I'd hope that I could go 8-9 months out of the year and handle some snow. That's where I'm not certain how a FWD CX-5 with snow tires and chains would handle. Would I get stuck? Or is it enough to get by?

I want a 6MT, so I'm basically between the Forester and the CX-5, and I much prefer the CX-5's styling, handling, and lack-of-oil-consuming engine. The question is though if AWD is actually necessary or if FWD+Snow+Chains is enough.

 

[vroom]

No. Chains are removed for bare pavement. They are only for snow/ice covered roads when you need the extra capability.

Ok then, if we're talking about removable aids, I say snow tires+AWD+traction aids are the best (headbang)

 

[MikeM.]

I haven't had much of an issue with a FWD Economy Sedan in the summer with all season tires, outside of ground clearance. But I don't really want to limit myself to hiking in June-August. I'd hope that I could go 8-9 months out of the year and handle some snow. That's where I'm not certain how a FWD CX-5 with snow tires and chains would handle. Would I get stuck? Or is it enough to get by?

I want a 6MT, so I'm basically between the Forester and the CX-5, and I much prefer the CX-5's styling, handling, and lack-of-oil-consuming engine. The question is though if AWD is actually necessary or if FWD+Snow+Chains is enough.

I've been through terrain a LOT more challenging than anything in those photos using nothing more than FWD and winter tires. No matter what vehicle/tire combo you have, you will find places you can't reasonably go. Of course AWD w/winter tires and back-up snow chains would be the MOST capable but a lot of it has to do with driver abilities and judgment. In my experience FWD and winter tires will get you to any reasonable destination but you may need to use better judgment to avoid getting stuck. AWD is especially handy for turning around on an unmaintained road when the snow gets too deep to continue.

 

[jhu8]

I guess I believe "best of the best" should mean something. So shoot me.



Do I need to point out that's exactly what you're doing with your meaningless post. Don't take things so seriously, we are just comparing the relative merits of different winter driving aids.

No, everyone knows how you are here. I'm just pointing it out.

I didn't buy AWD either for just snow. It's proven beneficial in many other situations. But as far as all seasons, I'd imagine there even better ones than the the stock ones that come with the car. So I'm sure that'll help even more.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

If you don't mind possibly voiding your tire warranty there is always siping but CU claims only modest improvements. I have had this done on cars in the past and was hard to tell how effective it was because it was done at tire purchase time.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/should-you-slash-your-tires/index.htm

"Our tests determines if it improves traction

The practice of siping, or cutting extra slits into tire treads, is supposed to improve a tires snow and ice-biting ability. Tire dealerships typically charge around $15 or more to sipe tires.

To see whether siping makes any difference, we tested two performance all-season models, an H-rated Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus and a V-rated Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S, with and without siping.

The siped version of both models showed modest but measurable improvements in snow-traction and ice-braking performance. But braking distances on wet and dry pavement were a few feet longer. Besides costing $60 or so for a set of four, having your tires siped potentially voids any tread-wear warranty. We dont think the modest gains are worth the extra costs."

 

[MikeM.]

If you don't mind possibly voiding your tire warranty there is always siping but CU claims only modest improvements. I have had this done on cars in the past and was hard to tell how effective it was because it was done at tire purchase time.

I've had tires siped but that was 30 years ago. I put a couple thousand miles on them before siping and noticed quite an improvement off-road as well as on snow/ice. But the bare pavement performance deteriorated and I got that squishy feeling in the corners like extreme winter tires give (but without the extreme winter performance). They also picked up a lot of small stones. Not for me.

Buy the tires ready to go for the job. Modern winter tires almost always come with sipes and they are better when designed into the tire to begin with. The major performance improvement with winter tires is not the tread pattern or siping but the rubber compound. That's why tires meant to be run year round (like Mud/Snow or "all weather") can't even come close to approaching the winter performance of a winter tire.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

Going back to when I purchased my CX-5 I knew I wanted an AWD model and thought... this system will probably do. The rest of the package was so satisfying I was willing to accept it's potential limitations. I had no idea at the time it was so capable and was in the mindset that I had to get a Subaru if I wanted a real capable model.

Glad to see Mazda now really pushing their system and making Subaru nervous. Someone needs to make an "i-ACTIV" emblem I can affix nearby the AWD on the backside... I'll buy one. A graphic designer I am not

Or something that could be printed out on 3D printer.

 

[Scythe024]

Going back to when I purchased my CX-5 I know I wanted an AWD model and thought... this system will probably do. The rest of the package was so satisfying I was willing to accept it's potential limitations. I had no idea at the time it was so capable and was in the mindset that I had to get a Subaru if I wanted a real capable model.

Glad to see Mazda now really pushing their system and making Subaru nervous. Someone needs to make an "i-ACTIV" emblem I can affix nearby the AWD on the backside... I'll buy one. A graphic designer I am not

Or something that could be printed out on 3D printer.

When I bought mine, AWD was a must too. After owning one, I just don't think I can go back unless it was for a project car (which I am debating on doing again since I got rid of my evo which was my daily and fun car). I figured most companies AWD system was capable enough for what I would use it for anyways. The more I read up on it lately, the happier I am. From some of the articles I read it's as good as Subaru in some areas, and surpasses it in others. It's funny because when I test drove the Subaru's I felt like the AWD system was the only thing going for it and it was the sole thing they tried to sell the cars off of. The interiors felt kind of cheap, the handling felt a bit loose. Just happy to see now I definately made the right choice even in terms of AWD system.