Fs Ze And The Story of the Uncontrollable Ping

[lostmybook]

Hey guys,

Been stalking around these forums for a while, and yes been searching around these threads to find a solution; and had found things similar to this, but nothing unique to my situation.

I have a 2003 P5 running on an MP3 flashed ECU managing an fs-ze (MINUS the headers, ignition coils, valve cover, and intake manifold. Planning to put in IM this spring). I have a ridiculous pinging problem, especially when it's over 70 degrees and going uphill. Now, I have read multiple times that if you're running a more aggressive ECU and higher compression, you need 91 octane to stop the pinging.

I'm currently running somewhere around 93 octane: 2 gallons of 100 octane and 4 gallons of 91, and still pinging! It has been reduced comparatively from running just 91, but still pings. Anyone out there running a similar set up than myself and have this problem??

 

[Ice88]

Got the real ECU? Use that should fix the problem

 

[lostmybook]

Thanks for the reply... I wish I had the wire harness and ECU, but do not
I noticed that when I went from the stock p5 ECU to the mp3 ECU the pinging reduced, not significantly though...

My mechanic told me that while he was performing the swap, he noticed that my precat was getting clogged... Maybe the exhaust isn't being expelled as efficiently as it should, thus increasing the cylinder temps?

 

[tweety2300]

Other people have used mp3 Ecus with no issues you have another problem. I would start with the precat gut it or get a header to delete it. Also with out the I'm you basicly have an fsde with ze pistons...

Did you swap crank pulleys? You have to run the de crank pulley

 

[lostmybook]

Yep DE crank pulley is in... my mechanic said it wouldn't start with the ZE pully...

Yeah without the IM and the ECU it runs feels just like an MP3... however, I kind of like the mid-range torque the MP3 configuration gives me...

My precat definitely is bad: CEL for it and the characteristic "sulfur" smell after WOT spurts. Gutting it sounds like a cheaper plan than getting another cat for $1000 from the dealership... how do I go about doing that though? Is the Cat welded onto the Exhuast manifold? Great idea by the way thanks...

Also, I've heard that pinging will occur if the compression ratio is artificially higher than spec, ie carbon deposits in the ignition cylinders effectively reducing cylinder volume and raising the CR. I don't know how likely this is as my mechanic said the internals were "clean" before he put it in. Is there any way I can test for this without actually opening the head? Sea Foam???

UPDATE: I have mostly 100 octane in my tank now, as the 91 is probably gone. (I thought they would be miscible to a certain extent but, turns out the iso-octane is less dense than whatever is in 91--butane?) Anyways, the pinging is gone with this... feels great; sharp engine response. It's 80 degrees today and no pinging even uphill. Too bad this will only last for another half a tank more...

 

[tweety2300]

Get an obx knock off from eBay better flow and deletes Pre cat

 

[lostmybook]

I would love to do that, given that some Ebay headers are like 60 bucks, but I would pay for it come SMOG check time next year... no way I could pass living in CA. However, I have seen some people comment on here about getting an aftermarket 4-1 and getting an exhaust shop to custom weld a cat unto it. I've never any seen any "how-to's" or anything more specific than that...

This was on ebay for 300 bucks. Anyone tried this and passed emissions?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-03-Maz...rotege5&vxp=mtr&hash=item5ae230645f#vi-ilComp

 

[codex]

I believe the header the FS-ZE came with is a 4-2-1 type. You pretty much need that for the motor to run properly, it is designed to pull the hot exhaust away from the combustion chamber to prevent pinging.

 

[tweety2300]

Our cars have 2 cats a main and a warm up " precat" the precat is on the header and only good for when the main cat is warming up. Since you live in ca is it even legal for you to do this swap?

 

[lostmybook]

Our cars have 2 cats a main and a warm up " precat" the precat is on the header and only good for when the main cat is warming up. Since you live in ca is it even legal for you to do this swap?

If I swap back my P5 ECU and fix my cat problem it will basically run like a "high compression" DE, so yes. Either way, this FSZE "swap" was inadvertent.

All I needed was another FS-DE, but his (my mechanic's) supplier gave him a "2.0L 4 cylinder" That looked extremely similar to the DE. He began to be suspicious as he told me that things like the headers (came with it) and Intake manifold, and ignition coils wouldn't fit with the current wire harness. He did research and told me that it was an "FS-ZE." That's when I started creeping around these forums to confirm what he said. Lo and behold, he was right
However, now I'm stuck with this problem, and my primary motive in getting everyone's help is to get the engine to run as properly as my resources will allow me to (without having to pay for another engine); though I must admit, I wouldn't mind a few extra hp's--but that's not the point for me. I really want this car to last me through college, and possibly grad school.

But tweety, you're saying if I get it smogged while warmed up it might still have a chance of passing?

Codex: Yep that's what I've read too, in fact when I google'd headers for the SP20 for sale, I found a few from foreign websites. They were 4-2-1. However, does this mean that people that run the FS-ZE swap in their Protege5's and MP3's have 4-2-1 headers? Did the MP3 have 4-2-1 headers stock?

Again, thanks for your guys' input.

 

[StealthWyvern]

Eh just get a standlone and tune it.. should be easier and cheaper then another engine swap..

 

[Protege03ak46]

whats your temps look like?

 

[AusOrion]

Codex: Yep that's what I've read too, in fact when I google'd headers for the SP20 for sale, I found a few from foreign websites. They were 4-2-1. However, does this mean that people that run the FS-ZE swap in their Protege5's and MP3's have 4-2-1 headers? Did the MP3 have 4-2-1 headers stock?

Again, thanks for your guys' input.

SP20 is the designation given to the Protege5 in Australia, although there is a sedan version as well (not quite an MP3 though). I have one and unfortunately they did not come with a 4-2-1 header design stock, just the plain 4-1 manifold at the top.

Yes, the JDM Sport20s and the Familia did come with a couple of different kinds of 4-2-1 headers. There are also a couple of aftermarket 4-2-1 headers from AutoExe (rare) and MaximWorks but they are only generally only available from Yahoo! Japan.

 

[tweety2300]

If I were you I would get a header and a high flow cat and weld it in after the main cat just in case. You need to free up exhaust flow as much as possible

He can't do a stand alone because he's in Cali...

 

[rvelasc0]

Where in CA. are you? I'm in LBC, and have a guy that will pass it for the right price.

 

[lostmybook]

whats your temps look like?

Ehhh If you're taking about my temp gauge on the dashboard, it's always been right below middle, where it's always been. As for the actual degree measurements in my combustion chambers I don't know... how can i figure that out?

Stand alone would be sweet. But would be one of the pricier options...

AusOrion: Are the MaximWorks expensive? Also, I found headers from a New Zealand site... the guy said they're from an SP20/Capella and they were 4-2-1.

Tweet: I like that idea! I'll look into this more.

rvelasc0: I know this sounds kind of contradictory... but I want to stay semi-legal if I can. Also, I need to fix this cat problem sooner or later regardless of SMOG check.

OK, so from what I'm gathering... I need to look into weather or not my cat is impeding flow significantly. I don't know if good exhaust flow will completely get rid of the pinging but it's a good start. Thanks!

 

[lostmybook]

QUESTION: If I were to delete the precat and weld a hi-flow cat after the secondary cat... would I have to route another O2 sensor before it? In other words, one o2 sensor before the secondary cat, and another in between the secondary cat and the newly welded hi-flow cat?
====o2==[CAT]==o2==[NEW CAT]===Muffler

 

[tweety2300]

You could do it that way or you could do the non fouler trick research that and then make your decision

 

[njaremka]

...but I want to stay semi-legal if I can. ...

Kind of a moot point, since you have an "illegal" engine in the car, right? The only way to be legal in CA is to put the correct engine in the car. Other than that, you need to add all the correct smog equipment that conforms to the engine you do swap into a car. And, since the FS-ZE was never sold in CA, well, screwed.

To stay semi-legal, you would have to make sure all the original smog equipment from your car is re-installed into the car.

Eh just get a standlone and tune it.. should be easier and cheaper then another engine swap..

^ This is the only way you will get the FS-ZE to run correctly in a USDM Protege.

 

[lostmybook]

Kind of a moot point, since you have an "illegal" engine in the car, right? The only way to be legal in CA is to put the correct engine in the car. Other than that, you need to add all the correct smog equipment that conforms to the engine you do swap into a car. And, since the FS-ZE was never sold in CA, well, screwed.

Right! That's why it was a "contradictory" statement. That's why I'm here, because, well, I NEVER wanted an FS-ZE... Didn't even really know what it was until I was stuck with it. I'm just trying to make the best of this situation, "best" meaning being able to pass smog when the time comes (with some minor part swapping, ie "To stay semi-legal, you would have to make sure all the original smog equipment from your car is re-installed into the car") and being able to run without significant pinging the rest of the time.

As for the standalone, again, you're right. However, how does that explain the other people that have ran a ZE with an MP3 ECU without pinging; at least not enough to seek help about it? Unless I'm overly fastidious about pinging, or am hearing or feeling things that do no exist, this means that there is nothing intrinsically present in my set up that would cause it to ping, but something extrinsically different that is, right? Thanks to everyone here, I've been able to figure out that much, and it's this extrinsic difference I'm trying to figure out. I'm not necessarily interested in running the FS ZE with it's intended 170 horsepower via standalone, I'm trying to figure out how I can run the ZE adequately enough with MP3 ECU management such that it won't ping, like everyone else with my setup. So please, if you have my setup and actually experience moderate to heavy pinging, please let me know as to make sure that I'm not chasing a ghost