Forums and the young

[happy and angry]

the only reason that age comes into play is because of lack of driving experience. This person was really not displaying a whole lot of adult behavior. Yes he is old enough to vote, die for his country, etc...but taking ur dad's car, bragging it is yours, then driving it recklessly while endangering other people, this is not exactly what i would call responsible behavior. I am not blaming anyone but the driver here, but I think that this situation couldve been avoided (or at least reduced the risk) had the parents recognized that their child was irresponsible and not given him the keys to a 300+ HP car.

Agreed. The parents could definitely reduced the risk of something like this happening. But. The story does indicate one way or the other that the parents had any reason to suspect he WAS irresponsible, lying about the car, dicking around on an airstrip, etc. Kids keep a lot of things from their parents (and that's not the parents fault either!).

 

[wolverine_man]

Ahh... but there is the fun concept of joint and several liability. You and your parents could both, at the same time, be completely liable for something you did and they enabled (obviously under only very specific circumstances).

But, no, get a real lawyer if you get into trouble. I am still in law school.

Nealric good luck in law school! I hope you decide to take the bar in Nevada or someplace warm. I'm stuck in Michigan with 8 inches of fresh snow and no time to ski.

 

[Sierra117]

Woah woah woah woah waoh...this is not my Batman glass.

But, seriously, from what I read:

Are we positing the argument that the parents are to blame for the simple fact that they owned a 500hp M5, it is their fault? Because their son was an irresponsible little snot nosed s*** who thinks he has big balls because daddy owns a fast car, its their fault? Jesus christ, what the hell is wrong with society?

 

[clos561]

their responsible for not knowing their son is a little snot...doesnt really matter anymore the kids dead and they proly had good insurance so they got a new car already, maybe a upgrade (guitar)

 

[JamJam]

the only reason that age comes into play is because of lack of driving experience. This person was really not displaying a whole lot of adult behavior. Yes he is old enough to vote, die for his country, etc...but taking ur dad's car, bragging it is yours, then driving it recklessly while endangering other people, this is not exactly what i would call responsible behavior. I am not blaming anyone but the driver here, but I think that this situation couldve been avoided (or at least reduced the risk) had the parents recognized that their child was irresponsible and not given him the keys to a 300+ HP car.

No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

*edit: Like your wheels, the all black setup is sexy as hell

 

[happy and angry]

their responsible for not knowing their son is a little snot...doesnt really matter anymore the kids dead and they proly had good insurance so they got a new car already, maybe a upgrade

This is the most insensitive, judgmental, misinformed thing I think I have ever heard.

What a dumb post.

 

[SuperStretch18]

No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

High speed runs on an airport runway in your parent's car is inherently irresponsible behavior. IIRC, the thread on the BMW forum said that it was his first experience with a manual car.

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

 

[jbiird317]

No one here knows this ADULTS driving experience, ability or what exactly happened at the end of that runway.

*edit: Like your wheels, the all black setup is sexy as hell

this is true. i grew up in nazareth, PA which is home to the andretti family. My sister is actually friends with the youngest andretti, Marco. He has been racing his whole life and is undoubtedly a great driver. However, he is 19 years old, only has 3 years experience driving on public roads (with other ppl making dumb decisions all around you), so even he is not invincible to tragedy like this. While he may be (and so could this kid) a skilled driver at high speeds, there are a lot of things on the road that could make those skills completely worthless. Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

 

[JamJam]

High speed runs on an airport runway in your parent's car is inherently irresponsible behavior. IIRC, the thread on the BMW forum said that it was his first experience with a manual car.

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

I agree it was irresponsible, but atleast he did it on a closed airport runway and not public streets. In the end it means nothing, they are dead by the hands of a 18 year adult that made the wrong decision.

 

[jbiird317]

I agree that he was an adult and is responsible for his actions. His parents handed him the weapon, but he fired it.

VERY well put, i think that places blame on each party

 

[JamJam]

this is true. i grew up in nazareth, PA which is home to the andretti family. My sister is actually friends with the youngest andretti, Marco. He has been racing his whole life and is undoubtedly a great driver. However, he is 19 years old, only has 3 years experience driving on public roads (with other ppl making dumb decisions all around you), so even he is not invincible to tragedy like this. While he may be (and so could this kid) a skilled driver at high speeds, there are a lot of things on the road that could make those skills completely worthless. Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

Well put! I agree and as a parent I would not have given my child the keys to a car like this.

At what age do you start taking responsibility of your actions? At what age do you become a Adult? Everyone is different but I think we like to consider 18 year old ADULTS that screw up teenagers with behavioral issues. 18 year old ADULTS that don't screw up and run proactive lives are young ADULTS.

What defines a legal adult I think is the ability to legally work, participate in contracts, vote, marry, give sexual consent, and join the military which is the age of 18.

 

[Bravnik]

Well I lied.

What you guys are failing to understand or just refuse to accept is that the parents handed an 18 year old a set of keys to a 500HP car to take out for the night. Sure this guy was 18 and can vote, die for his country, yadda yadda yadda. It does not change the FACT that it was irresponsible to give an 18 year old keys to a 500hp car.

I just can't understand why this does not make sense? Had they said, no take the minivan. He would be alive today. The parents have to hold some responsibility in this. It was their action by giving him the keys that directly resulted in his death.

For all we know, he begged till he was blue in the face and the parents caved. For all we know, he promised that he would be a good boy and NEVER abuse his parents car. But that does not change the fact that the parents should have never given such a young person the keys to a 500HP 12 Second Car to go joy riding with his buddies. I'm sure they meant no harm, but it was just as big of a mistake as it was to take that car to the airport and kill 5 people.

So my point is and has been all along that, yes, he was 18 years old and a YOUNG adult. However, his parents gave him the keys. They hold some responsibility in how the night ended.

The comment I made earlier about under 25 had nothing to do with me thinking young people are idiots and what they say I don't respect. It was directly related to the fact that a person under 25 does not have children (close to driving age at least).

So when you feel the need to defend the parents. Just ask yourself this question. If it was your kid and you handed the them the keys to a 500HP car to go out in and they killed themselves and/or others, would you feel the slightest bit responsible? Or do you honestly think you would just go "Don't blame me, he made a stupid mistake".

 

[SuperStretch18]

Oh, they should feel terrible! Their hands aren't completely clean either! However, there needs to be some accountability when you become an adult (that also has to do with how he was raised, but that is another matter altogether).

Put it this way; if he had lived and his friends had died, he would be 100% accountable. The parents shouldn't accept all of the blame by default because the person responsible died and we need someone to point the finger at.

 

[07CBMS3]

Now I know that this occured on a runway and we have no clue what led to the accident, but the point remains, the parents gave their kid keys to an extremely powerful car and turned him loose with only 2 years experience on the roads. im not sure how some people arent seeing the inherent risk here......

Agreed, even if the parents aren't responsible, they should feel a lack of commom sense. One part of the original posters reference article that caught my attention is as follows:

Experience Counts
Apparently AmericanM5 had not been entirely truthful in his postings. The M5 belonged not to him, but instead to his father.

When members of the M5board forum had made this suggestion online, AmericanM5 bristled: "It's mine, buddy. I just traded in my 335i and paid the difference."

Another member suggested that AmericanM5's lack of knowledge about the BMW M5's transmission could be easily explained: "Maybe your two years' driving experience in your whole life is the problem."

AmericanM5 responded: "That could be a good assumption but the fact I never drive a manual car before may be true, but I've been driving for a lot longer than two years, buddy."

Reports indicate that Ammirato had received four traffic citations in the last two years.​

Assuming the driver still lived with his parents and not knowing the extent of the traffic violations, speeding vs. illegel u-turns, this should have "red flagged" the parents their child needed a little more behind-the-wheel training before trusting him on public roads with a carload of passengers. The make/model of the vehicle doesn't seem to be the problem, it's just accentuated it. Overall a very sad situation that has left behind many grieving family members.

 

[CB08MS3]

Nice username (bird) ^ LOL

 

[Sierra117]

Well I lied.

What you guys are failing to understand or just refuse to accept is that the parents handed an 18 year old a set of keys to a 500HP car to take out for the night. Sure this guy was 18 and can vote, die for his country, yadda yadda yadda. It does not change the FACT that it was irresponsible to give an 18 year old keys to a 500hp car.

I haven't seen every little facet of the case, but are we sure the dad just tossed the keys to the car to his kid and said here, go have fun? In that case, while it was irresponsible of the dad to do so, it still places blame on the driver for going out and doing this. However, if he took the keys and the parents didn't know, then I would absolve them of all responsibility in the accident. If you are going to blame the dad for owning an M5 (assuming the kid took the car sans permission), then you might as well blame BMW for making the M5, and the sales person for selling the M5.

 

[JamJam]

I misunderstood your comment and I did not want to offend you or anyone else that is why at the end of my post I apologized if I had taken your post the wrong way.

I agree with you that the parents made a mistake. You mentioned they would still be alive if they were driving a minivan that night. There are to many variables that could have happened that night. Maybe they were going out to the runway regardless of the car. Maybe they do this weekly with all their friends and they didnt know someone had dug a big hole in the runway that week. Yes that car is a monster and pretty much a street legal RACE car. It was a tool used in the accident but like I have said before, this story would not be news worthy if it was a civic or a minivan as you put it. They would have been just as dead if they did the same thing in any vehicle. Again we dont know if this is a weekly event these Irresponsible Adults do!

I have remorse for all parents in this situation. I would not blame them for the actions of the Young Adults (there children) that transpired that night. We can go round and round about this M5. My whole arguement on that is the fact that we have no history on this subject. We dont know what these young Adults do for fun, which may have been weekly speed runs with one of the other parents Audi RS8, 300hp modified civic, or the emphamous minivan. They are all machines and when used improperly can kill. He just happened to be in a M5 and thats the only reason this story is news worthy. Dont get me wrong 5 kids dying is NEWS worthy, we as car inthusiasts would not have a post going on 8 pages about 5 kids dying in a minivan! Would the parents have been irresponsible if this happened with the family minivan? That very well could have been the case and I am sure we can pull up the statistics and see that more children die in minivans than M5's. I know thats a little unfair because minivans far outnumber M5's on public streets! Whats the difference though. I am saying its not the car that killed thes young Adults its the decision to drive like an idiot. Why cant everyone see this. They could have been in a minivan doing 110 on that runway. It doesnt matter they are just as dead. As easy as it is to build 12 and 11 second honda civic we should be talking about all the 18 year olds that died this year street racing. There is usually no mention of irresposible parents in these stories just street racer taking out family in minivan..

Just to many variables to keep talking about the M5. It could have happened regardless and we cant say it would not have happened that night with another vehicle.

 

[Bravnik]

I haven't seen every little facet of the case, but are we sure the dad just tossed the keys to the car to his kid and said here, go have fun? In that case, while it was irresponsible of the dad to do so, it still places blame on the driver for going out and doing this. However, if he took the keys and the parents didn't know, then I would absolve them of all responsibility in the accident. If you are going to blame the dad for owning an M5 (assuming the kid took the car sans permission), then you might as well blame BMW for making the M5, and the sales person for selling the M5.

We are making an assumption that the parents loaned him the car. If so, then they are responsible for their actions.

Now if he took the car without permission he is totally 100% responsible.

I would never blame the car, the gun, the drugs or any other inanimate object for someones death as the object itself couldn't kill anyone unless someone used it.

Nothing in life happens without cause and effect. Multiple things merge into a final result. In this case the 18 year old is to blame for doing something stupid that resulted in peoples death. The parents are to blame if they actually let their 18 year old take out a 500hp car with their blessings and as much as I hate to say it, the other kids in the car are also to blame for not stopping their friend from doing something stupid or at the very least, getting out of the car.

Had just one of those things not happened we would not be discussing this at all today. Everyone involved has to accept their part in this and is responsible for their actions. It does not matter if they are 16 or 60, kids or parents.

 

[HIGHBRED8]

i know when im out or go to an accident that it usually does not involve a 100k+ 500hp lux car. usually some little age appropriate compact. pretty much any car is capable of speeds well in excess of 100mph. this could of and probably would of happened had he been given a 97 civic. theres tons of them out there throwing a muffler and a filter on some pos and all of a sudden they have a race car. its easy to blame the parents when they handed their son the keys to a type of machine most of us can only hope to valet park one day, but truth of the matter is this s*** happens everyday in economy cars. are we blaming those parents? no, then its just a stupid kid, but through a bmw in the mix and something changes? please, bottom line, not good idea to give an inexperienced drive the keys to such a car but we dont know this guy he could of been an excellent kid with awsome grades etc giving his family no reason not to trust him. he made a big mistake that cost 5 people their life and now no matter who we blame it doesnt matter because they are all gone, and us deciding who to blame doesnt change a damn thing. we all gave our opinion and no one is gonna say something so inspiring that will make everyone else change their mind, so lets just say its a sad story that happens all the time and move on. this thread is gonna end up longer then the damn "which ems is better posts" posts

 

[Sierra117]

So can we agree that if he took the car without his parent's permission, we can absolve them of the blame?