Downpipe. Cat or no cat?

aceblaster

Member
:
2008 MazdaSpeed3
I have been searching for hours on DP options and found that most people like the catted DP from COBB but I also have found that a lot of people like Catless.

Question Time...

Which DP will have better power gain? I have heard our turbos will produce more power with the cat due to back pressure, then I've also heard that no cat=no resistance, so you get more power that way.

Safety... Is there a safety factor for either option? Or are both DP's have the same risk factor?

Feel free to throw any other Important info I should know about DP upgrades.

Side Note- There is no emission testing where I live, so that is not a factor.

Thanks Guys
 
I'm running the catless TurboXS dp/rp combo into the stock CBE. This is sometimes referred by TurboXS and its vendors as "Stealthback." I am very happy with this. I've put over 41,000 miles on the car and have had this exhaust set up for all but the first 10,000.

It is going to be very difficult to generalize an answer to your questions. I'll try, but would request that you read all the way through the several threads on this subject.

My view is that turbocharged engines DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT need backpressure to make more power. Any restriction on a turbocharged engine is potentially power robbing.

The problem is not with back pressure. It is with the potential for overboosting on the stock turbo if the exhaust gets so free flowing that the wastegate gets maxed out and cannot dump all the extra flow back into the downpipe. Some guys running aftermarket downpipes and race pipes have reported overboosting/boost creep climbing above their target boost levels. Those who have had this problem have put some restriction in the system to reduce the flow to control this. I've not had the problem, but acknowledge that others have. There's only one way to find out, because we've learned that each of these cars is a world unto itself and the same mods seem to produce slightly different results from car to car.

You can always add a high flow cat or put the stock secondary cat back on in place of your race pipe.

Another consideration is that you absolutely must monitor boost and probably should be measuring other engine metrics. A downpipe/racepipe, especially if catless, will have the desirable effect of raising your boost level about 2 psi. The increased flow and increased boost means more power. It can also mean exceeding safe boost if you do not monitor. IMHO, you want boost to be in the 18 psi range max to stay safe on this turbo, especially if you are on the stock tune. In cold weather you are likely to run into load cut at about 17.5 psi. Unless the load limits are raised (modestly with Hypertech tune, or more aggressively with AP tune, if you desire), you are likely to run into a wall and get abrupt loss of power when you cross that threshold.

Another consideration is the difficulty of installation. It's not terribly difficult, but it ain't easy. The particular location of our turbo makes gaining access to studs and nuts difficult. You must use a LOT of something like PB Blaster and give it plenty of time to loosen them up. Same thing with the oxygen sensors. That front one is broad band, is very expensive and is absolutely necessary for your engine to run properly. Take your time, go slow. Better yet, get a good aftermarket race car oriented performace exhaust shop to do it for you. I have a complete shop, lift and just about every hand and power tool I could want, but I still farmed it out because of the risk of stripping out threads.

You can run even a catless dp/rp on stock tune successfully. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I did it for about 30,000 miles or more and only recently went with the Hypertech tune. I was getting very quick transient spikes to 20-21 psi on stock tune. They would hit that peak when just coming up on boost and then immediately settle to 17-18 psi. I don't think that caused any harm. Others might say that even transient spikes to that level could be harmful. I just don't know. The HT tune did eliminate the spikes for me and I see a nice sustained 18-19 psi boost all the way to 5,500 rpm now with a nice taper to about 16 psi at 6,000.

With your FMIC you may be more prone to boost creep, overboost or boost spike than me, as I'm still running on the stock TMIC. My prediction, based on my experience is that with the combo of your good intake and a good dp/rp, you will see your 0-100 mph times drop by a full 1.5 to 2 seconds. It's a good mod. Not for everybody. Must keep an eye on boost levels all the time.
 
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Wow! Very nice write up and answered all of my questions perfectly. I plan on purchasing a Magnaflow CBE within the next week or two if everything works out right with money and the seller. Then it sounds like I will purchase a tuner next. then go for the DP/RP.

Thanks for the writeup and the advice for when I do get my DP/RP.
 
WOW MSM3 nice man,

100% agree, I'm running the same DP( More mods) but at the time of the DP was Stock ex:the Catless DP..
 
I bears mentioning that catless DPs can set the stock turbo to smoking, due to the crappy sealing design in the KO4 and the sketch PCV system on these cars. It hasn't done this on mine or MSMS3s but, it's possible. I think prevention is the order here. I use good quality synthetic oil, change it out every 3500 miles and have the PtP pill in my PCV line. This has given me 0 smoke problems so far.
 
Thought it was general consensus that a downpipe does not cause smoking. The removal of a cat will just reveal any smoking that you already had.
 
No, the reduced backpressure of a catless design exaggerates the pressure differential of the crankcase pressure on the other side of the turbine seal. So, yeah, catless DPs can cause smoking.
 
The real question is can you pass your state inspection with out a cat? If you can don't put a cat in your exhaust. If your state requires a cat use a high flow cat. Its really that simple.
 
Thought it was general consensus that a downpipe does not cause smoking. The removal of a cat will just reveal any smoking that you already had.

I have to disagree. Darth is right that there seems to be a link between reduced back pressure and increased crankcase pressure on the turbine seal. While this is poorly understood, it seems to be the reason that some cars smoke and some don't. The stock PCV system is borderline to aweful on these cars and putting extra flow through the exhaust just seems to make things worse in some cars.

The thing is, we can't seem to figure out who is going to have the problem and who will not. I'm at almost 42,000 miles now, 3 inch catless dp/rp for all but the first 10k, and do not smoke, while some completely stock cars smoke. Go figure. But the risk does increase with high flow catless exhausts. I would not be honest if I did not say so. If you want more power, you have to accept certain risks. No free ride. Pay to play.
 
If you are asking me, the answer is standard weight - 5w30, but full synthetic Mobile 1. Have been using this exclusively since first oil change.
 
i asked b.c my car would smoke here and there on mobile 1 5w30 and i still have my stock cats in. seems that my car didnt like Mobile 1. so i switched to PP 10w30(at 10k miles) and my car hasnt smoked since then. i have 33k miles on the clock now and getting ready to install my dp
 
Thanks for the explanation. It is true that changing to somewhat "heavier" oil may provide help to some with "smoking turbos." I think Mazda has now discontinued their recommendations in that regard, however. Perhaps one of the reasons for their change in position may be related to what I state below:

There are some risks in running heavier than specified oil in modern overhead cam engines. It's not like older overhead valve American "muscle car" type V8's. An example: When Ford introduced its three valve per cylinder overhead cam "modular" V8 engines, (recommended oil viscosity was a mere 5w20 or 5w30 depending on which model), it began experiencing a rash of bottom end oil related engine failures. When they got through with the analysis of the problem, they found that most of these failures were due to the customer or independent lube companies upping that bottom number to 10w or 20w or raising the top number to w40.

Conventional thinking was that such oil was way too "thin", was not widely available at that time, and that thicker oil was "better."

However, most modern overhead cam engines, by design have very tiny "oil viscosity metered" orifaces for returning the oil flow from the cams back into the head and from the head back into the block. By design, their ability to return oil back to the bottom end is dependent on the specified viscosity.

In the instance of the Ford modular engine oil failure issues, TSB's were issued by Ford and aftermarket engine rebuilder standard setting groups like the Automotive Rebuilders Association (AERA), to alert techs, maunfacturers and resellers to this issue. Oil was pooling up in the cylinder heads and not making its way back to lubricate the main and rod bearings.

I'm not saying that this is a great risk with our engines, or we probably would have heard about it. I am saying that there are sometimes subtle and perhaps counter-intuitive reasons that a particular specified oil weight may be better for the engine. Replacing a smoking turbo is a lot cheaper than replacing a trashed engine due to lubrication failure on the bottom end. Be careful out there, guys and gals. Specs exist for a reason.
 
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I don't like following cars that have no cats and smelling their exhaust fumes so I will not run a cattless exhaust. I have no problems with those who run cattless, it's just how I feel about it.
My last performance car was completely devoid of emissions equipment and it stunk to high hell. My hair and my clothes always reeked of fumes when I drove it. Not doing that again.
The difference in performance between a performance catted DP and catless DP is negligable.
The difference in PRICE is significant I will grant you.
I some day plan to run the Corksport setup with a cat in the lower racepipe and spend the extra $200.
 
This car runs so damn clean around town you can't hardly smell it at all, even catless. I have to go around back and stand there for quite some time, engine running, to smell anything. It ain't my old 400 Trans am with 30+* of overlap on the cam and a machined out choke horn Holley DP. (naughty)
 
Ah yes...the classic "Joe Dirt" whip!
Had a few friends with 70's TA's in high school.
Wow are there some memories.

I'm sure at idle the MZR is comparatively clean as hell. I would suspect under boost when the ECU puts this thing pig rich, like it always does, whoever is in your wake will surely smell it. This thing farts a cloud when you're in it with the stock exhaust. Without any cats, it's gotta be pretty stinky.
 
I was just looking into the whole catless/catted debate. My biggest question is whether or not the TurboXS catless DP/RP combo throws the check engine light. I would go for it right away if it didn't. If there's one thing I hate, it's running around with a CEL on all day... It would just make me angry seeing it.
 
I have the TurboXS catless dp/rp. In can throw a CEL, but rarely does. I can drive for weeks, sometimes months at a time and no CEL.

I first went with the "spark plug extender - oil fouler" fix. You get a spark plug exender and bore a bigger hole in the middle, large enough for the 02 sensor to fit. This actually made it worse for me, because we do have extended bungs on the TurboXS downpipe, and it was pulling the sensor too far out of the flow stream.

Then I went with the "diode fix," (search for a how to on this if interested) but did not want to actually splice one of the wires, so I rigged up a temporary plug in for the diode to try it. It works. You can buy a pre-wired plug diode harness somewhere, not sure where. But I still did not want to cut the wire and eventually went back to just screwing the sensor into the bung, since I can delete any CEL easily with a scan tool or my Hypertech programmer.

It's no big deal. Just check it to make sure it's not a CEL for something else.
 

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