Do superchargers exist?

[Mp3AtlantaGa]

Does anyone know of a supercharger, NOT turbo charger that will work for the Mp3, it may have been posted already but i dont have the time to scan the forums, i would appreciate any information and/or webpages with prices, info... etc
Thanks

 

[MP3-E]

The Wings West project MP3 has a vortech Supercharger for it, but there is no word if it is going to be available for consumer purchase yet...

 

[Traveler]

No one makes a kit yet. I'm eventually going to build a supercharger set up for my car. I've already got the supercharger in the shop (Eaton M62). I'll need engine management right away though with some kind of fuel enrichment so I'm thinking about getting the engine mgmnt thing taken care of first, then I'll build an intake manifold and drive set up. I just put one of our pickup trucks up for sale and if I sell it I'm probably going to get an Emanage with the complete harness. Then I'll start building the 'charger setup.

 

[freekwonder]

Travler, when you get this built can you please post and let us know how hard, and what all you did and aproximate cost. i want to autox, and figure the supercharger with quick low end boost is better than waiting for a turbo to spool up. i dont drag race.

 

[blynzoo]

I already looked, there's nothing ready made. I posted this letter somewhere else on the site (god knows where). It's from Corky Bell, the guy knows what he's talking about.

Hi Brook,

No sir, no supercharger for the Protege.

After 30 years in this business, design and construction of 50 turbo and SC
kits, authored two books on forced induction, and 17 seasons of SCCA/IMSA
competition, I am inclined to disagree with regarding drag racing and
turbos.

In fact, I am sure you are wrong. All other thing being equal, a
turbocharged car is always faster than a supercharged car.

Our turbo equipment finally blew the supercharged Mustang drag racing
equipment clean off the track. Ever competitive Mustang in the country is
now turbocharged. If a Mustang can leave the line at 15 psi boost with
great skill required to control traction, then a Protege can too.

If top fuel permitted turbos and electronics, they would be producing well
in excess of 10,000 bhp.

I'd urge that if you want to go fast, start with the turbo. If you don't,
you will have to start all over later and wind up a year behind. Its sort
of like chess; never send a boy to do a man's job.

Our system will expand to the limits of the engine driveline capability. We
don't know where that is yet, but the system, with turbos available for the
same envelope will ultimately produce air flows sufficient for approximately
450 BHP.

I've got 5 kits left at $2,950. After those 5, the price will rise to
around the mid 3's. These are set up to run 8 psi. Other upgrades will be
needed to exceed 8 psi. They will be developed along the way.

Regards,

Corky Bell
BEGI

With the right set up (meaning a good BOV, controller and timer), turbo is better than super. I know, I know, there's the argument. After talking to Corky and reading his book and other articles,....well, look at my signature.
but thats just me

 

[blynzoo]

and for autox, definitely go turbo.

 

[freekwonder]

and for autox, definitely go turbo.

can you please EXPLAIN why, i was always told the supercharger would be better for autox for the low end boost. why would a turbo be better.

 

[blynzoo]

No prob. super is absolutely better for low end boost, you're right . That makes it better for dragging, where you're starting from stop. When X-ing, you are already moving, and your revs are up, so the turbo is in effect. As much as I hate to admit it (I love supers) turbos will always get you more power because they're using wasted energy (exhaust) while the super has to run off the pulley, taking back some of the gains you get from the system. The key to X-ing and turbo is getting the right turbo. You want to have a smart BOV (blow-off valve), at the least a two-stage valve, and also have the proper turbine itself. The smart BOV closes completely at low revs (to minimize lag) and a quick spooling turbo can deliver power as low as 1000rpm. Your overall possible gains with a quick spooling turbo are not as great (because of smaller blade size, meaning you push less air) but most of us never get near the limit of what are garret t3's can do (these things can go up to 400hp). There will always be SOME lag from STOP in a turbo, but once moving, and with the quick (low rpm) spooling turbo, your horsepower advantage will kill any super out there. Like other folks on this site, I recommend reading Corky Bell's book, ummm......"Maximum Boost." It goes into detail about both supers and turbos, how they work. Once moving, turbo is better than super. The big advantage to super in the past was drag racing, and as corky says, even that's changed.

Damn, this is getting long.

Both super and turbo increase horsepower, duh. Turbo will have a slight lag, but with the right system we're talking fractions of a second from supers. When doing longer auto-x runs, like the road course, you're revving high enough to use the turbo. You really do lose a LOT of power pushing the super with the pulley. It increases exponentially, the more powerful the super, the more energy you use to push it. The longer the "run" then, the more power you're losing, as each second using a super is seconds wasting energy.

But I'm just a guy, I dont know nearly everything. I do know that most everyone has stopped putting supers on their car. Turbo technology with computers has advanced hundred fold since we started putting them on cars. Lag can be minimized, but as you say, never erased. That is true.

I'm gonna stop, my hands are tired.
LOL
happy hunting!!!!!

 

[freekwonder]

cool thanx for the help man. ive dont really know anything about boost, so thats why i asked. most people tell me get a supercharger for autox cause you RPMs go up and down so much ( i guess it depeneds on the course we have a lot of courses out ther that you dont ever get out of second. but your explanation helped alot. i never knew about the SMART BOV. (boobs) (drinks) (freak)

 

[MP5s Make Ready]

Yeah I don't know barely anything about them except that they're expensive and I want one LMAO. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Traveler]

It always depends on what you want out of your engine. A positive displacement supercharger is self contained, provides boost immediately upon throttle opening, and makes your engine 'act' like a larger displacement engine. Eaton superchargers have proven themselves to be VERY reliable and virtually maintenance free. There is definately still a place for superchargers if you are looking for 45-50% more power than stock while retaining outstanding driveability and stock reliability. Over those levels, you start having heat issues that make turbocharging look better.

Turbocharging will always be able to ultimately outperform superchargers in the maximum power category. The roots type supercharger works really well on smaller displacement engines to make them perform like larger displacement engines. There are several major manufacturers that rely on superchargers to make their cars perform better while maintaining very good reliability. These include Mercedes, GM, Ford and several others. However, these applications are not all out performance racing applications that allow for the use of turbochargers.

The turbocharger still requires power to turn the turbine. It's not just wasted energy in the exhaust. It places a restriction in the exhaust that requires power to move. They do have a parasitic loss, but it's not directly off the crank like a blower. A roots type blower for our engines (small Eaton) will only need 7-9HP at 7-8 psi boost. That's about as much as an A/C compressor. It will return about a 45% power increase at the crank runing 5.5-6 psi. So, if you were using it on a stock Protege you'd see about 188 HP at the crank which should be about 155 at the wheels. This is consistent with what people have tested on Probes with a blower. Higher boost levels will make more power. At 7 psi we should see about 205 at the crank and 175 or so at the wheels. I'm hoping to have mine a bit higher since I'll be starting with some mods that will work well with the blower. I'm only shooting for about 185-190 at the wheels with an Emanage and the blower to complement the mods I've made. It should make about 180 lb/ft of torque at the wheels from about 2200 RPM and keep it past 6000. It should retain all the driveability with NO negative aspects to it's character other than being prone to wheelspin

BUT, if I was shooting for larger numbers I'd go turbo in a heartbeat. If I was shooting for closer to 300 HP at the crank I'd eliminate the idea of a supercharger and go turbo. WHY? Because it's more efficient at the higher pressure and I'd be able to intercool it. The blower would be way past it's efficiency point at the boost levels required for that power level and I'd have a serious detonation problem. Will I be able to continue to up the boost levels with my supercharger? Probably only to about 8 psi or so with pump gas. Will it be fun? Oh yeah! My goal has always been to have about 200-210 HP and 215-220 lb/ft of torque. That will make for a fun car that will drive like it has a big V-6 in it. Will I be able to keep up with all you guys that are planning on eventually getting to 15 psi turbocharged? Probably not. But I'll have a fun car that will still get good mileage that I won't have to be careful of. No need for turbo timers, drilling and tapping the oil pan, fine tuning part throttle medium load fuel maps, and not as much underhood heat.

Jackson racing still makes supercharger kits for lots of applications. The reason is they provide a lot of bang for the buck and they retain high reliability and are easy to tune. The people that buy them aren't looking for a top fueler or a road racer they are looking for more fun and no hassles. There will always be a place for superchargers but you have to take a close look at what you want out of your car. You will only be able to get to a certain power level with a supercharger. As long as you beef the internals, the potential power out of a turbo system is much higher.

It all comes down to what you eventually want out of your car. Plan accordingly and have fun doing what you want to do to it!

 

[blynzoo]

lmao....I'll try to find you a link to a smart BOV...I think BEGI has a two-stage, not sure.....nope, just checked.
It's not really "smart" like a smart bomb is smart, it's smart like an automatic tranny is smart. based on speed and rpms it decides to open or not. you want it open when braking and shifting so that the turbo continues spooling at the highest speed possible for when you need it again (i.e. when you shift to the next gear and hit the gas).

But AGAIN, superchargers are still the s***. And I can see definite advantages to auto-X, depending on what you do. Go with what makes you happy and looks good in the car.

 

[Mp3AtlantaGa]

Y'all are talking about stuff so far over my head, i was just wondering about the superchargers, but thanks for all the info, i appreciate it- i always thought superchargers were better, and i heard that turbo's kill warranties...oh well

 

[slowyellowp5]

So do superchargers

All these guys are right with what they are saying, they just know what they are talking about so they go on and on and you'll have to trust them.

A simple example: The 1.8T engines you see on all the Jettas, GTIs, and Passats have a pretty small turbo, however they are stil capable at 14 or so psi. Anyway, with the stock setup they get maximum torque at 1800 RPM all the way through 5000, and it peaks at around 2500 or so. So...where's the lag there? an N/A V8 gets maximum torque way past that, even if they have a wide torqueband.

 

[blynzoo]

WAY TO GO TRAVELER!!!!!
What a good post! That belongs in the FAQ section or something. I'm just a builder, here's a guy with all the lingo.
TYVM.

By the way, about the BOV, big_ben has a two-stage. he might be able to answer q's.