Clinton or Obama

[SuperStretch18]

I think he was more trying to make a point by exaggeration than anything else. Sorta the same thing you tried to do with your Anne Coulter / Rev. Wright Comment. Although there are people who would love to kiss up to Bin Laden and ask him what the US has done to offend him and how we can make him like us, I am in no place to make that judgment call about you.

I do wonder though, just out of curiosity: Why would you rather sit next to reverend Wright? Both him and Ann Coulter might have radical views but to the best of my knowledge only one of them has blamed 9/11 on America; Said that HIV AIDs was a product of the US govt to implement a Black Genocide; and damned their own country repeatedly.

What is it about him you find so fascinating but yet repulses you so much about Ann Coulter? Does it just come down to party affiliation so one can be excused and one can not? If so, thats sad.


Maybe that would explain Obamas' fascination with him also.

To be fair, only one of them suggested that the NY Times building be blown up or that widows from 9/11 were somehow revelling the deaths of their husbands or implied that opposing candidates were "*******" or that women shouldn't be allowed to vote!

Unfortunately, I would say that Bin Laden probably agrees with all of the negatives from both characters. I would like to hear his reasoning, but doubt that I would shake his hand afterwards...

 

[Donas64]

To be fair, only one of them suggested that the NY Times building be blown up or that widows from 9/11 were somehow revelling the deaths of their husbands or implied that opposing candidates were "*******" or that women shouldn't be allowed to vote!

Unfortunately, I would say that Bin Laden probably agrees with all of the negatives from both characters. I would like to hear his reasoning, but doubt that I would shake his hand afterwards...

Once again. You're right. Ann Coulter has also said some pretty nasty things but it goes back to my question to him: What makes her so much worse or Rev. Right so much better that he would prefer to sit next to one over the other? Whats the quality that makes Rev. Wright more palatable to him than Ann Coulter despite both of them being extremely to the right and extremely to the left?

Is it just a partisan thing? Thats what I'm trying to get at. Personally, I wouldn't like to sit next to either.

Thats exactly the kind of thinking that Obama claimed to be distancing himself from. A new breed of politician. A change so to speak. So why associate with wright?

If Rev. Wright was in cahoots with Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, I wouldn't bat an eye. But being so closely knit with Obama makes me want to ask questions and his speech, while eloquent, didn't answer my questions.

 

[pasadena_commut]

bingo!

Some people will excuse ANYTHING if it makes them feel better.

The same people giving Obama and his pastor a free pass would want to run rough-shod over Jerry Falwell and any candidate he would have supported.

Ok, here is some equal opportunity reverend quoting. With regards to 9/11, reports on Rev. Wright say:

...he told his congregation on the Sunday after Sept. 11, 2001 that the United States had brought on al Qaeda's attacks because of its own terrorism.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost," he told his congregation.

And here is part of the exchange between Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on the same subject at almost exactly the same time:

Then Falwell said, "What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
Robertson replied, "Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven't begun to see what they can do to the major population."
Falwell said, "The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I'll hear from them for this, but throwing God...successfully with the help of the federal court system...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."

Both men seized the opportunity to lay the blame for the attack on their own pet peeves. Wright's passion is social injustice, Falwell's is immorality. Lo and behold, Wright felt that social injustice had led to the attacks, while Falwell saw it as a result of immorality.

In any case, what the religious leaders think isn't my concern, I only care about what the candidates think. I'm pretty sure Obama doesn't think that we were hit on 9/11 because of anything we ever did or didn't do to the South African blacks. It seems equally likely that John McCain doesn't subscribe to the belief that "alternative lifestyles" led to the fall of the two towers.

 

[pasadena_commut]

I
I do wonder though, just out of curiosity: Why would you rather sit next to reverend Wright? Both him and Ann Coulter might have radical views but to the best of my knowledge only one of them has blamed 9/11 on America; Said that HIV AIDs was a product of the US govt to implement a Black Genocide; referred to his country as the "U S of KKK A" and damned their own country repeatedly.

What is it about him you find so fascinating but yet repulses you so much about Ann Coulter? Does it just come down to party affiliation so one can be excused and one can not? If so, thats sad.

Coulter says and writes a lot of awful things and her primary purpose for doing so seems to be self promotion. The more outrageous her statement, the more she profits from it. She strikes me as a thoroughly unpleasant person. Wright's goal seems to be to shock the listener into attempting a different viewpoint. Much of the recent stir has revolved around what is essentially his take on the golden rule, as read through a very, very loud megaphone.

Agreed, his HIV thing is just plain stupid. Religious leaders are rarely a good source of scientific information. Here we have one who has combined his complete ignorance of Biology with an ongoing victim complex to produce utter nonsense.

So, I'd rather sit next to Wright than Coulter, since while he's a bit of a blow hard she's just mean. I'd rather sit next to Obama, Clinton, or McCain than either of them. Actually, if I had my choice of anybody, up until his recent demise it would have been William F. Buckley - I rarely agreed with him on anything but the guy was so smart and charming it would have been fascinating to talk to him.

 

[SuperStretch18]

Once again. You're right. Ann Coulter has also said some pretty nasty things but it goes back to my question to him: What makes her so much worse or Rev. Right so much better that he would prefer to sit next to one over the other? Whats the quality that makes Rev. Wright more palatable to him than Ann Coulter despite both of them being extremely to the right and extremely to the left?

Is it just a partisan thing? Thats what I'm trying to get at. Personally, I wouldn't like to sit next to either.

Thats exactly the kind of thinking that Obama claimed to be distancing himself from. A new breed of politician. A change so to speak. So why associate with wright?

If Rev. Wright was in cahoots with Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, I wouldn't bat an eye. But being so closely knit with Obama makes me want to ask questions and his speech, while eloquent, didn't answer my questions.

If we're choosing seats, I want a window in an empty row!

The whole Ann Coulter thing got me thinking and if we can agree that both parties have a radical view on society and don't deserve a seat next to either of us on a plane, here's my question:

If a candidate selected Ann Coulter to serve on a ### panel, they would rightfully be criticized for aligning with her. If that same candidate then came out and explained that Ann Coulter had introduced him to his current church, which helped provide a foundation for his religious beliefs. She has served as an ally and a trusted advisor for many years. They have known her for 20 years and although she holds some disturbing ideas about society, that they denounced, she has also done more to promote conservative principles than almost any other person in the US. They explained that her comments in public are not the full measure of the person and denounced the words but refused to throw her under the bus. "And wow, I hadn't heard those last few comments, which were really off the wall." They then proceeded to explain the thought process and the why and how their positions were different. Would that candidate be instantly invalidated from being a good leader?

That question is not just for you Donas; it's more for the group. In my opinion, I don't think it does. It would raise questions that needed to be answered, but really don't feel that just because you associate closely with someone, you share all of the same views.

 

[chacon101]

For me, Obama is the way to go here. Almost more importantly, Clinton is not. I say this mainly because I think Clinton is an aweful sort of human being. If I met her at a party and we were introduced, I imagine her as being fake as all hell and looking to see what she can get out of me. Depending on the politics of the day, she would be trying to get me to swing in that direction and not really "talk" to me.

Obama is the sort who would really listen, think about what I said and then respond in a way that was to the benefit of everyone. The software company I work for is run in the exact same way. We gather all of the suggestions from our clients and try to provide features that will benefit the most. It's an excellent business model when actually executed...not just in theory.

I agree with the posts that state while Obama may know or have been associated with people who hold radical views which most people would never agree to, that doesn't mean he holds those values to heart. I know of a few people that are pretty much nuts (blacks and whites regarding race) but that doesn't mean I won't associate with them. If that were the case, I would barely hang out with anyone because personally, I think most of you people are freaking out of your minds

The other night on the Daily Show, Jon showed a clip of Obama talking about the preacher thing. He stated that the safe political thing he could do would be to let this just fade out of the press and move on. He said that instead, he made his case, stated what his reasoning was for associating with this person (the preacher) and said that we should just move on and focus on more important issues of the day. Right after that clip, Jon stated that finally, a presidential candadate was talking to the people as an adult. I think it was a very telling statement as to whom he supports and I agree to the sentiment.

Finally, cause I know I am babbling here, I will explain another reason why I will NEVER vote for Clinton. I saw a video clip of her in a black church located in Harlem. She was in the front speaking into a mic which she held by hand and stated to all of the mostly black audience, "this white house is bring run like a plantation, and YOU KNOW what I am talking about". She also said something else right after it but I don't remember right now.

After seeing that, I literally wanted to vomit. She got lots of applause and was so very happy with herself. I see it as a way to hype resentment for the Bush administration while keeping her black supporters down. SHE is in fact running things like a plantation if you ask me. She would simply do or say anything to get into office and that's not my kind of person.

ps. to think that anyone would have even think twice about shaking Bin Laden's hand is astonishing.

 

[camrycev6]

I know two people who personally worked for / with the Clinton's at the White House. They (Bill and Hillary) had a repuation for looking down on the military. It was a standing order from Hillary that military guard at the White House were not to speak with her, look at her, or address her in any way. These two individuals said they (and the rest of the military staff) were treated liked slaves / servants while there. They joked specifically that when Bill was re-elected, they would need to transfer! No Clinton.. no way.

 

[SuperStretch18]

A lot of wonderful people love their country and hate the military.

 

[chacon101]

I would never say that either of Clintons are dumb but if that last post about hating the military is accurate, there is something very wrong with these people.

So you love the country but hate the military? What in the world has the military done to make you "hate" them. It's not like the military just goes around the world doing whatever it wants, POLITICIANS are the ones who make them do it.

He should have maybe stated that hates when politicians send the military out to do things he doesn't agree with. Making a blanket statement like that is immature at best....especially for a politician. He was clearly showing his radical side here IMO.

 

[SuperStretch18]

I'm not suggesting that because Bill wrote something in 1969 that it is true for Hillary today, but I just happened to find it this morning, so I thought it was funny...

 

[chacon101]

Oh sure, I agree completely. But it does say something about where they stand on stuff.....at least back then. Or, maybe they were just less cautious about what they let out? Either way, he was probably busy "not inhaling" What a maroon.

 

[Donas64]

If we're choosing seats, I want a window in an empty row!

The whole Ann Coulter thing got me thinking and if we can agree that both parties have a radical view on society and don't deserve a seat next to either of us on a plane, here's my question:

If a candidate selected Ann Coulter to serve on a ### panel, they would rightfully be criticized for aligning with her. If that same candidate then came out and explained that Ann Coulter had introduced him to his current church, which helped provide a foundation for his religious beliefs. She has served as an ally and a trusted advisor for many years. They have known her for 20 years and although she holds some disturbing ideas about society, that they denounced, she has also done more to promote conservative principles than almost any other person in the US. They explained that her comments in public are not the full measure of the person and denounced the words but refused to throw her under the bus. "And wow, I hadn't heard those last few comments, which were really off the wall." They then proceeded to explain the thought process and the why and how their positions were different. Would that candidate be instantly invalidated from being a good leader?

That question is not just for you Donas; it's more for the group. In my opinion, I don't think it does. It would raise questions that needed to be answered, but really don't feel that just because you associate closely with someone, you share all of the same views.

I totally agree and I hope I have made it abundantly clear that I do not think Obama believes as his Pastor does nor do I hold Obama personally responsible for his pastors comments. But I DO hold Obama responsible for bad judgment. I actually think he's a very likeable guy and up until this fiasco thought he was pretty much a lock for the presidency (though

I'm not talking about Bush or McCain or any other candidate but Obama.

This is a Man who said: WORDS MATTER

This is a man whose whole campaign and the reason for its success is the promise of change and unity

This is a man who touts his judgment on not going into the Iraq war.

But he willingly chose to listen to a race-baiting, anti-semitic, hate spewing pastor who on FAR more than one occasion has said things that would make Jerry Falwell blush and his judgment didn't tell him to find another place of worship?

I would not attend Jerry Falwell's church or any other church where the pastor spoke in such inflammatory tones. Its one thing to push the envelope, but this guy went far beyond that with no remorse or apology whatsoever.

I truly believe that due to this incident, Barack Obama has no chance of Being President.

 

[chacon101]

I know everyone has had different experiences in their lives based on their race and of course where they have lived. Growing up, I moved around every two years of my life and then when I got into the Army, it started a 7 year long stay of living in DC.

That said, I have worked and lived in downtown dc. I have met many locals over the years because of where I worked and some of the rhetoric that Obama's preacher was spouting wasn't far off from the stuff I heard commonly stated in my circles when surrounded by locals who also happened to be black.

On the other side of that, I have heard the same stuff from my white friends....from every town that I have ever lived in.

This is why I liked Obama's speech. If you really think about what he said, he was pretty much right on about something that either the mass media hasn't picked up on or just doesn't want to admit. This country is real funny when it comes to discussing race...mostly because if you mis-speak in any way, you are labeled as a racist and totally discredited.

 

[chacon101]

If everyone around you feels a certain way about something and deep down, you don't, it can be a very difficult thing to go against the current.

Hasn't there been times in your life where you felt that way but didn't say or do anything? I would have to believe we all have.

I think Obama's upbringing is what makes him so special in all of this. It's like a first year immigrant to this country who's family is from somewhere else totally different. This first year person is going to be different from most and struggle to "fit in". Because this person would have to always be made aware of their place in the world, it also provides them a way to see the big picture.

Maybe since this is what happened to me in my life is why I feel as though I relate to him so much. His words are what I think. He is alot better at explaining it though

 

[Killer]

I truly believe that due to this incident, Barack Obama has no chance of Being President.

That is because you would never vote for him anyway. You are a staunch conservative.For those who believe in him, this type of religious slander does not matter.

 

[BOOSTR]

But he willingly chose to listen to a race-baiting, anti-semitic, hate spewing pastor who on FAR more than one occasion has said things that would make Jerry Falwell blush and his judgment didn't tell him to find another place of worship?

I would not attend Jerry Falwell's church or any other church where the pastor spoke in such inflammatory tones. Its one thing to push the envelope, but this guy went far beyond that with no remorse or apology whatsoever.

Maybe he and Wright share a similar brain deficiency?

Here are some of Falwell's blush moments. He was a bigot, reactionary and a fool in my book!
On Sept. 11:"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Wayall of them who have tried to secularize AmericaI point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.' "<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
On AIDS: "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."<o></o>
On homosexuality: "I believe that all of us are born heterosexual, physically created with a plumbing that's heterosexual, and created with the instincts and desires that are basically, fundamentally, heterosexual. But I believe that we have the ability to experiment in every direction. Experimentation can lead to habitual practice, and then to a lifestyle. But I don't believe anyone begins a homosexual."<o></o>
On Martin Luther King Jr.: "I must personally say that I do question the sincerity and nonviolent intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mr. James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations."<o></o>
On Martin Luther King Jr., four decades later: "You know, I supported Martin Luther King Jr., who did practice civil disobedience." <o></o>
On public education: "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again, and Christians will be running them."<o></o>
On the separation of church and state: "There is no separation of church and state." <o></o>
On feminists: "I listen to feminists and all these radical gals. ... These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men; that's their problem."<o></o>
On global warming: "I can tell you, our grandchildren will laugh at those who predicted global warming. We'll be in global cooling by then, if the Lord hasn't returned. I don't believe a moment of it. The whole thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability."<o></o>
On Bishop Desmond Tutu: "I think he's a phony, period, as far as representing the black people of South Africa."<o></o>
On Islam: "I think Mohammed was a terrorist. I read enough of the history of his life, written by both Muslims and non-Muslims, that he was a violent man, a man of war."<o></o>
On Jews: "In my opinion, the Antichrist will be a counterfeit of the true Christ, which means that he will be male and Jewish, since Jesus was male and Jewish."<o></o>

 

[Knox Joe]

Maybe he and Wright share a similar brain deficiency?

Here are some of Falwell's blush moments. He was a bigot, reactionary and a fool in my book!
On Sept. 11:"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.' "<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
On AIDS: "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."<o></o>
On homosexuality: "I believe that all of us are born heterosexual, physically created with a plumbing that's heterosexual, and created with the instincts and desires that are basically, fundamentally, heterosexual. But I believe that we have the ability to experiment in every direction. Experimentation can lead to habitual practice, and then to a lifestyle. But I don't believe anyone begins a homosexual."<o></o>
On Martin Luther King Jr.: "I must personally say that I do question the sincerity and nonviolent intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mr. James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations."<o></o>
On Martin Luther King Jr., four decades later: "You know, I supported Martin Luther King Jr., who did practice civil disobedience." <o></o>
On public education: "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again, and Christians will be running them."<o></o>
On the separation of church and state: "There is no separation of church and state." <o></o>
On feminists: "I listen to feminists and all these radical gals. ... These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men; that's their problem."<o></o>
On global warming: "I can tell you, our grandchildren will laugh at those who predicted global warming. We'll be in global cooling by then, if the Lord hasn't returned. I don't believe a moment of it. The whole thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability."<o></o>
On Bishop Desmond Tutu: "I think he's a phony, period, as far as representing the black people of South Africa."<o></o>
On Islam: "I think Mohammed was a terrorist. I read enough of the history of his life, written by both Muslims and non-Muslims, that he was a violent man, a man of war."<o></o>
On Jews: "In my opinion, the Antichrist will be a counterfeit of the true Christ, which means that he will be male and Jewish, since Jesus was male and Jewish."<o></o>

Falwell's not running for President, nor is he a candidates mentor, advisor, spiritual leader, and "uncle". (dunno)

 

[SuperStretch18]

Falwell's not running for President, nor is he a candidates mentor, advisor, spiritual leader, and "uncle". (dunno)

So wouldn't that make it much easier for McCain to reject him and his support?

 

[Donas64]

That is because you would never vote for him anyway. You are a staunch conservative.For those who believe in him, this type of religious slander does not matter.

My being a conservative has nothing to do with it. Its a matter of principle.

 

[Donas64]

Falwell's not running for President, nor is he a candidates mentor, advisor, spiritual leader, and "uncle". (dunno)

People seem to forget that. Also, none of the former presidential candidates

1. donated thousands of dollars to Falwell's church

2. were pastored by him for over 20 years


But at least he apologized for this 9/11 comments, allowed speakers to come on liberty university campus to share opposing viewpoints, and never damned his own country. He stuck to his guns but welcomed discussion and was willing to apologize when he crossed the line.


I don't think that Rev. Wright ever apologized or reconsidered his comments. But he gets a pass because he's black and he's a liberal.

As a black man, I'm tired of the double standard. Enough Already.