Change automatic transmission fluid?

fre

Member
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mazda cx5 touring 2014
I recently had 2 incidents where my transmission revved before going into 1st after backing out of a parking space. The engine revved when I pressed the gas then lurched forward. I have a 2014 Cx5 with 73000 miles. I checked the transmission fluid to make sure it wasn't low and it wasn't, but the color was a light brown. I read that the transmission fluid is lifetime, but am concerned that the color indicates the need to change. I called Mazda and they said they could flush the transmission for $200. Service bulletin 05-003/13 says "flushing is not recommended as part of service maintenance". The revving hasn't happened in several weeks, but I am gun shy from a transmission failure in another car. My neighbor suggested just draining a filling once/ year with ATF FZ.

Also I see a tech service bulletin 05004 14 that talks about a whining noise from the transaxle at speeds greater than 10 mph on 2013-2014 CX-5 with VINS lower than JM3KE2BE3E0415164 (produced before November 11, 2013). My vin is JM3KE2CY4E0375203, so it looks like I'm in that group. I haven't had any noise but should I be worried?

Any experience or recommendations would be greatly appreciated
 
Here it comes. What you'll hear is this: 1 whole group will say NOT to do anything. Another group will say: change it. In-between there'll be debate as to what LIFETIME means, as per Mazda.
1 thing ONLY I can tell you: do NOT do flush. Do drain and fill. $200 seems a little high, in NY/NJ dealer charge $150.
About whether to change it: I am equally confused.
 
I recently had 2 incidents where my transmission revved before going into 1st after backing out of a parking space. The engine revved when I pressed the gas then lurched forward. I have a 2014 Cx5 with 73000 miles. I checked the transmission fluid to make sure it wasn't low and it wasn't, but the color was a light brown. I read that the transmission fluid is lifetime, but am concerned that the color indicates the need to change. I called Mazda and they said they could flush the transmission for $200. Service bulletin 05-003/13 says "flushing is not recommended as part of service maintenance". The revving hasn't happened in several weeks, but I am gun shy from a transmission failure in another car. My neighbor suggested just draining a filling once/ year with ATF FZ.

Also I see a tech service bulletin 05004 14 that talks about a whining noise from the transaxle at speeds greater than 10 mph on 2013-2014 CX-5 with VINS lower than JM3KE2BE3E0415164 (produced before November 11, 2013). My vin is JM3KE2CY4E0375203, so it looks like I'm in that group. I haven't had any noise but should I be worried?

Any experience or recommendations would be greatly appreciated
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?123852281-Shift-delay-going-from-P-to-D-on-a-2016-GT

How did you check the transmission fluid?
 
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If you are able to do a plug drain and refill, then you may want to consider it. However: the issue you are describing suggests a electronic problem rather than an old fluid problem. I would ask a Mazda rep, (not service writer) if there has been an update of the AT software. Ed
 
I sent in a sample of my transmission fluid at 50K to Blackstone Labs (fluid looked great) and I asked them about "lifetime" fluid. Here's their response. Note that they have nothing to sell me related to this, and fluids are their business.

"We can't say the manufacturer is wrong. After all, they designed the transmission and they are the ones to replace it if/when it fails. Still, the oil itself has a limit as to how much metal and insolubles it can hold before it becomes abrasive, and for that reason, we think the oil should be changed at some point.
Oils that have been in place for 100K miles or more are often full of wear-in material and any accumulation over the course of those 100K miles, and in some cases, the oil can actually stay in place longer, while in other cases, the oil is abrasive and full of insolubles, which cause more wear overall.
It's hard to put an interval on it, but you've done the right thing by checking in at 50,000 miles. This way, you can get an idea of how things are going and if/when you need to change it next.
The basic rule of thumb is that changing the oil doesn't hurt anything, but leaving it in place for a long time can cause excess wear, which could've been avoided with shorter intervals.
My vehicle also has a "lifetime" fluid, and I don't know what they were trying to achieve by designing it this way."
 
I would not do a flush. I would do a drain and fill myself. Use Mazda approved fluid.
 
A drain and fill of approx. 5.1 US qt, per service manual is pretty much the only service regarding the ATF. Above that is dropping the pan, and replacing the strainer (and bolts for it). If you have to drop the pan because of a clogged strainer or excessive particles, you are probably having a major failure somewhere.
 
Mazda claims "lifetime" transmission fluid, but they don't warranty the transmission (in the US) beyond 5 years or 60k miles. Perhaps they only mean the "lifetime of the warranty"?
 
Many manufacturers state that their transmission fluid is a lifetime fluid. I find that total BS, ATF should be drained and refilled every 30-50k depending on your driving habits. Some may say that is overkill, but better be safe than sorry.
 
Mazda claims "lifetime" transmission fluid, but they don't warranty the transmission (in the US) beyond 5 years or 60k miles. Perhaps they only mean the "lifetime of the warranty"?

Exactomundo!! Once that drivetrain warranty expires they are free and clear with the exception of recalls probably. Car Manufacturer lifetime = warranty period. If you plan on keeping your car past that period you better change your fluids. There's no question there. The debate lies in when to do so!!
 
If you tow I think every 25k miles would be ideal but 30k miles would be doable. If you DON'T tow then 40k miles would be good.

That's just my opinion.
 
Exactomundo!! Once that drivetrain warranty expires they are free and clear with the exception of recalls probably. Car Manufacturer lifetime = warranty period. If you plan on keeping your car past that period you better change your fluids. There's no question there. The debate lies in when to do so!!

I disagree. I know people with vehicles that have transmissions which have gone hundreds of thousands of miles without fluid changes. Yet the only 3 vehicles I've owned with automatics that got transmission fluid changes, each and every one had issues afterward, 2 of which ended up in complete failure, and 1 just in driveability issues. The highest mileage was 110K, the lowest was around 70K.
 
IMO... nothing wrong with a drain an refill on a vehicle you know the "full" service life on. A used vehicle..... that is another matter but I don't recommend the full flushes either.

This formula has always worked for me.
 
I disagree. I know people with vehicles that have transmissions which have gone hundreds of thousands of miles without fluid changes. Yet the only 3 vehicles I've owned with automatics that got transmission fluid changes, each and every one had issues afterward, 2 of which ended up in complete failure, and 1 just in driveability issues. The highest mileage was 110K, the lowest was around 70K.

You may disagree with me but I agree with you lol. Here's how:

Long story short with considerations into BMW's steptronic transmissions. The general rule was to change the tranny fluid before certain "K" miles. I have to admit I forgot exactly the amount 50-60k? Anyways the rule says if you're past a certain "K" miles DO NOT Change the tranny fluid because doing so will cause more harm than good. With harm I mean complete tranny failure harm. BTW, VW's DSG transmissions requires fluid flush/changes otherwise warranty can be voided.

Long story shorter: I'm replacing fluid aprox every 40k miles (40/80/120) via drain fill for both our newly owned Mazdas. I would think twice and research further before replacing transmission fluid for the first time on a car nearing high mileage. In BMW's case, transmission fluid at say 100k miles has valuable metal shavings in it that changing it out for new fluid would cause failure. That problem is avoided by just leaving the fluid alone or an earlier and then scheduled fluid changes which is what I'm doing.

Interestingly, I've been turned down by at least 4 shops (3 tranny shops) for wanting to flush/fill my BMW's auto transmission. Their first question was "what is the mileage". Their answers, they do not want to be held responsible for costly damage.
 
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In BMW's case, transmission fluid at say 100k miles has valuable metal shavings in it that changing it out for new fluid would cause failure. That problem is avoided by just leaving the fluid alone or an earlier and then scheduled fluid changes which is what I'm doing.

I still don't have an opinion on changing transmission fluids because I've seen so much conflicting info and I simply don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other.

But I will say your explanation above makes little sense. If the metal shavings at 100K miles are so "valuable" then wouldn't you want them to build up (and thus avoid changing it at all, even very early)?
 
I think this happens more often than it should-----> Wrong AT fluid is used during the service

This talks about flushing which I am opposed to but a few thoughts nonetheless

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf100456.htm

"Automatic Transmission Fluid Flush

Copyright AA1Car
Adapted from an article written by Larry Carley for Brake & Front End magazine

Flushing can prolong the life of a transmission, provided it is done fairly regularly, say every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. But if the transmission on a high mileage vehicle (say over 100,000 miles) has never been flushed, it is probably best to NOT flush the fluid. Here's why: The detergents in new ATF may loosen up accumulated crud inside the transmission, which could cause some problems within a few thousand miles or so after the flush. So if your fluid has never been changed and your vehicle has a lot of miles on it, it is probably best to just leave the fluid alone and top off the fluid level as needed if it is low."
 
I still don't have an opinion on changing transmission fluids because I've seen so much conflicting info and I simply don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other.

But I will say your explanation above makes little sense. If the metal shavings at 100K miles are so "valuable" then wouldn't you want them to build up (and thus avoid changing it at all, even very early)?

I first came across the "metal shavings" explanation within a BMW forum I used to frequent. I thought that was a bit outrageous statement myself but reminded myself that these guys had much more knowledge than I had of the matter. Then I shopped around calling shops in the San Diego area where I lived at the time. Not one shop, not one BMW dealer was willing to take my money and change my BMW tranny fluid. The #1 question they ask me is what is my mileage. (It was around 90k miles). The #1 explanation they provided was that the metal shavings in the fluid was really important. They countered that had my mileage had been lower (40-60k miles) they would've serviced my BMW. (BMW dealerships do not do it at all).

To answer your question more specifically is a challenge. From my research I recall that an oil analysis of the BMW tranny fluid at 70k miles indicated the oil had a very different composition from new. This may have then accelerated the accumulation of metal shavings. This may explain why it is important to change the fluid prior to reaching this point. The following is from a Bavarian Auto blog. It mirrors the more technical explanation given to me by shops.

The only potential problem would have been with a transmission that was not serviced properly in the first place, which then has its fluid changed at something north of 100,000 miles. There is a possibility that crud that has built up in the valve body may be softened and dislodged …. only to jam another area of the valve body. Additionally, we feel (after seeing some of these transmissions, internally) that in cases where the fluid was never serviced, the old thick fluid that is laden with wear particles, is actually helping keep the worn-out clutch packs operating by sort-of filling in the voided area between the clutch plates (the fluid in these transmissions looks like a non-synthetic oil that would have been drained from a 300,000 mile old engine, after being run in the engine for 20,000 miles …. with sand added to it). Replacing with fresh fluid just makes the transmission act as it normally would with that much wear. If the transmission were in a state of wear that would cause it to start slipping shortly after a fluid change, it would likely not have lasted much longer anyway. Of course, the wear would not be to this point if the fluid had been changed regularly in the first place!

So basically this is what I got.

1. The non-serviced high mileage transmission oil may develop crud.
2. The non-serviced high mileage transmission oil is thicker and laden with wear particles (shavings).
3. The transmission parts have deteriorated and actually rely on said crud and metal shaving laden oil to fill voids and to operate.
4. Changing the metal shaving laden fluid and removing crud allows the transmission to operate as it should WITH wear. No matter what that wear is present.
5. The transmission now with new fluid will simply act like a transmission with wear would. Depending on the level of wear, the transmission will either operate poorly or possibly fail despite having new fluid.

Options: A. Leave transmission oil alone and run till it stops working. It may last you another 1k miles or may last you another 100k miles. Who knows? Chances are you'll sell the car and it would be the next guy's problem. B. Get a new transmission. Those shops were right in telling me option A. Option B was a last resort well unless selling the car. There's option Z which is to service the tranny fluid on a set schedule and avoid this whole mess.
 
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I still don't have an opinion on changing transmission fluids because I've seen so much conflicting info and I simply don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other.

But I will say your explanation above makes little sense. If the metal shavings at 100K miles are so "valuable" then wouldn't you want them to build up (and thus avoid changing it at all, even very early)?

Whatever his explanation, it's legit in cause--->effect. You change fluid at 100K miles, and you would have saved time and money just dropping the trans and replacing it. Because now you're going to be doing that, AS WELL, shortly.
 
So basically this is what I got.

1. The non-serviced high mileage transmission oil may develop crud.
2. The non-serviced high mileage transmission oil is thicker and laden with wear particles (shavings).
3. The transmission parts have deteriorated and actually rely on said crud and metal shaving laden oil to fill voids and to operate.
4. Changing the metal shaving laden fluid and removing crud allows the transmission to operate as it should WITH wear. No matter what that wear is present.
5. The transmission now with new fluid will simply act like a transmission with wear would. Depending on the level of wear, the transmission will either operate poorly or possibly fail despite having new fluid.

Interesting explanation. By this line of reasoning, it would be beneficial to change the fluid often early in the transmissions life but, at some unknown point, stop changing the fluid so the old fluid can extend the life of the nearly worn out transmission.
 
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