Blew Stock Turbo.. what next?

[Yamaha72]

just over 36,000.. she's been modded since about 8,000 miles

Holy Cow! I just ticked over 41K, but the only performance mod I have is the MS CAI with an air flow straightener but I drive pretty conservatively... We'll i'm looking forward to your build, BTW you car looks awesome too!

 

[speed3driver]

Thanks man, i should be ordering a bigger turbo this week along with a few other things.
I'm also planning on a custom tune once its all installed.

 

[Wurf]

So which way/what model turbo are you going with and what company are you using? Just curious about your goals and the products you plan to use.

 

[john blutarski]

I don't get putting in a reworked K04. I mean they put in the SAME faulty seals that Mazda uses so why would you want to run the risk of that smoking down the road and having to pull it again. I say go 28R

 

[speed3driver]

I don't get putting in a reworked K04. I mean they put in the SAME faulty seals that Mazda uses so why would you want to run the risk of that smoking down the road and having to pull it again. I say go 28R

I see your point.. I have to make my decision by the end of the week. My plan was the reworked K04.
Two main reasons for going with the RWK04:
1. After core refund of my turbo the cost is around $800(K04) opposed to $1500(28R)
2. Don't want to have to rebuild the engine with forged internals.

Is there any way to get better seals with the reworked K04 to avoid smoking again?
If you can convince me to go 28R please do, i just need to know more about it. How much boost is capable of making (22-24psi?), how much more power will it make, will i need forged internals or will i be well under 350whp still?

 

[MSMS3]

I don't get putting in a reworked K04. I mean they put in the SAME faulty seals that Mazda uses so why would you want to run the risk of that smoking down the road and having to pull it again. I say go 28R

The 28R will "smoke" too. It ain't the seals. At least not 95% of the time.

I've had four Garrett turbos on different cars, three Saabs and one Volvo over the years. All had aftermarket DP/RP's and most running catless. All had aftermarket ECU's (red box on the Saabs) that hike up max boost to 2 Bar (about 14-15 psi). All of them "smoked" until I learned about the use of oil catch cans on high boost turbos. It's normal blow-by from the high boost creating crankcase fumes getting sucked back into the intake through the PVC valve.

Go read the forums on other high boost turbo cars and read the same complaints about this so-called "smoke."

So, given our configuration, why would the 28R be immune from the same conditions?

 

[john blutarski]

The 28R will "smoke" too. It ain't the seals. At least not 95% of the time.

I've had four Garrett turbos on different cars, three Saabs and one Volvo over the years. All had aftermarket DP/RP's and most running catless. All had aftermarket ECU's (red box on the Saabs) that hike up max boost to 2 Bar (about 14-15 psi). All of them "smoked" until I learned about the use of oil catch cans on high boost turbos. It's normal blow-by from the high boost creating crankcase fumes getting sucked back into the intake through the PVC valve.

Go read the forums on other high boost turbo cars and read the same complaints about this so-called "smoke."

So, given our configuration, why would the 28R be immune from the same conditions?

I've read countless posts of guys with catch cans, switching to 5w40, doing black magic and witchcraft etc and these damn K04's still smoke. The Garrett's have been proven reliable aftermarket turbos for years. They are built from the ground up to withstand high boost, high flow applications. Perhaps its an oil feed/drain issue on the K04, maybe its the seals... nobody knows FOR SURE not even Mazda apparently!! I can tell you that not ONE guy with a GT turbo on a DISI on any forum is smoking from bad seals. Please link me if you find different.

 

[speed3driver]

I guess it wouldn't be..
I'm thinking of going with the Reworked K04 then.. smart move? I'm getting an oil catch can as long as welding a cat into my downpipe. Should i be relatively safe from smoking again?

 

[john blutarski]

I see your point.. I have to make my decision by the end of the week. My plan was the reworked K04.
Two main reasons for going with the RWK04:
1. After core refund of my turbo the cost is around $800(K04) opposed to $1500(28R)
2. Don't want to have to rebuild the engine with forged internals.

Is there any way to get better seals with the reworked K04 to avoid smoking again?
If you can convince me to go 28R please do, i just need to know more about it. How much boost is capable of making (22-24psi?), how much more power will it make, will i need forged internals or will i be well under 350whp still?

You don't need forged internals to run a any specific turbo on this car. It's all in how much boost you're running and the tune.

 

[speed3driver]

I know, i just don't know how much power it would make at my current boost level (21psi)
I've heard the internals on this car can't handle any more than 350whp so my goal is to stay around 320 to be safe.

 

[john blutarski]

I know, i just don't know how much power it would make at my current boost level (21psi)
I've heard the internals on this car can't handle any more than 350whp so my goal is to stay around 320 to be safe.

I think it could make a bit more than a reworked K04. I know one of the MS6 guys was putting out over 300 I think at only 16psi. I realize its expensive though and a tough decision if you're not going to use it to its full potential. Just for me personally I'd pay the extra money to get a proven turbo like a Garrett over the POS K04.

 

[Wurf]

I vote you install a good catch can setup first. Get one with a filtering baffle in it and see what happens after a couple hundred miles.

If it fixes your problem, cool. If not, start snail shopping. It won't hurt to have it with your non-K04 turbo anyway. You'll probably want one with it as a matter of fact.

 

[08cosmic3]

I vote you install a good catch can setup first. Get one with a filtering baffle in it and see what happens after a couple hundred miles.

If it fixes your problem, cool. If not, start snail shopping. It won't hurt to have it with your non-K04 turbo anyway. You'll probably want one with it as a matter of fact.

I've been shopping for a catch can and would like help in deciding which set up to go with. Ease of install is the main concern for me rather than cost of the unit. Sorry to thread jack but it may help the OP also.

 

[Wurf]

I've been shopping for a catch can and would like help in deciding which set up to go with. Ease of install is the main concern for me rather than cost of the unit. Sorry to thread jack but it may help the OP also.

I liked the looks of this one and the write up here is great. It has an internal baffle and a drain valve, which is a must for me.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123711318&highlight=catch+can

I shopped around and found flashier looking units from several companies but none of them had internal baffling and very few had drains on the bottom. You could always add one but suffice to say, the above unit has the correct size fittings, the baffle, drain cock..... the whole works.

You can find them cheaper but after I did some legwork I pretty much decided the Saikou Michi unit was the way to go. My car only has about 1400 miles on it so I haven't bought yet.

 

[08cosmic3]

That looks hard to install and requires fab. Mybe there is a bolt on kit somewhere that is easier to install.

 

[nutsac76]

Has anyone ever looked at the oil return line on these turbos? gauranteed yours is backing up under high boost. they are designed bad and if you mate up your stock return line to a gt and it used to smoke from the k04 it will smoke now.oil is like water that it will follow the path of least resistance and that usually ends up being a seal if the dump hole is either plugged or backed up from the pan. you can actually use a bigger line and AN for the return the plumb is fine. Just make sure you know what you are doing before cutting oil lines on your s***!

 

[john blutarski]

That looks hard to install and requires fab. Mybe there is a bolt on kit somewhere that is easier to install.

PG was gauging interest on a complete catch can kit that they would do a GB for. I know there was plenty of interest and I think they said May could be a target date to begin production.

 

[opt_ms3]

Has anyone ever looked at the oil return line on these turbos? gauranteed yours is backing up under high boost. they are designed bad and if you mate up your stock return line to a gt and it used to smoke from the k04 it will smoke now.oil is like water that it will follow the path of least resistance and that usually ends up being a seal if the dump hole is either plugged or backed up from the pan. you can actually use a bigger line and AN for the return the plumb is fine. Just make sure you know what you are doing before cutting oil lines on your s***!

seriously, this is a good point. This was a post on the other (better) forums that was taken from an SRT forum. PAY ATTENTION TO THIS

Here's a post I found on an SRT forum:

If you have a car that resembles a James Bond tricked out SRT-4, please take the time and check this out.

A turbo drains its oil from gravity, nothing more and nothing less. If there is any restriction in the turbo's drain path back to the pan, oil will build up in the center housing. This oil is going to take the path of least resistance and will leak out of the turbine's side piston ring and turn into blue smoke coming out of the exhaust.

Most of your friends are going to tell you that you have a blown seal, and that your turbo needs to be rebuilt. 99% of the time, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. We get turbos in the shop everyday for rebuild because of the mysterious "blown seal" theory that lingers around every intarweb forum that deals with any turbo vehicle. These turbos are perfectly fine, and don't need a rebuild 99% of the time.

I'm putting this explaination together to help all of you save time and energy before you feel the need to send a turbo back to us for rebuild.

Lately, we've noticed a trend with some of the available "check valves" in this market that some shops are selling. Moreso, there are part numbers floating around this forum from industrial supply companies that many people are buying and installing. Most of these check valves will not work properly to allow enough crankcase venting so the turbo can sufficiently drain.

We've done some testing here with a local car and we were able to figure out what was going on. The very popular 1/4"NPT check valve has a .200" valve that is insufficient in allowing the engine to pull enough crankcase pressure when in vacuum. This extra crankcase pressure under vacuum conditions will cause the turbo to leak oil past the piston ring and results in blue smoke out your exhaust. Get rid of this size check valve as all your are doing are causing more problems for yourself.

That same company offers a check valve with 3/8" NPT ports and the valve size is .460". This valve is FTW, period.

We put the 1/4"NPT check valve on the car, let it sit at idle for 30 minutes. After about 20 minutes, the car started smoking, and got progressively worse over the next 10 minutes. Keep in mind, this is on a car that never smoked before. We then installed the 3/8" NPT check valve on the car and let it idle for 30 minutes. No smoke at all. We then put the smaller check valve back in, and instantly started smoking again.

 

[john blutarski]

I posted that and more info about oil feed/drain issues over a year ago in this forum...

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123691179&page=22

I don't think anyone has done anything with it except change oil weights and add catch cans. I think PTP may finally be doing something with feed/drain line size and/or restrictor pills in the feed.

 

[opt_ms3]

ah cool, my bad. hopefully PTP makes some progress.