AWD/DSC and oversteer question

[Beefy]

If you kill someone due to a skid while driving with DSC deliberately off, there are absolutely potential legal issues. Mazda is fairly justified to wipe their hands of it. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

 

[kmac720]

If you kill someone due to a skid while driving with DSC deliberately off, there are absolutely potential legal issues. Mazda is fairly justified to wipe their hands of it. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

Haha, that would be a legal issue for me, not Mazda.

Thanks for the "GET OFF MY LAWN" speech Grandpa. If I want to do a little drifting/hooning in a parking lot I OWN, that's well within my right. I'll go buy one of the many many many vehicles out there that CAN have the DSC disabled. Any argument trying to justify DSC should be unable to be disabled is stupid. There are many other vehicles Mazda makes currently that can have DSC disabled.

Furrin Group here in Michigan just had their second round of Ice Trials, essentially an autocross on a frozen lake. Too bad a CX-5 can't do this...

 

[Beefy]

I'll go buy one of the many many many vehicles out there that CAN have the DSC disabled. Any argument trying to justify DSC should be unable to be disabled is stupid. There are many other vehicles Mazda makes currently that can have DSC disabled.

Furrin Group here in Michigan just had their second round of Ice Trials, essentially an autocross on a frozen lake. Too bad a CX-5 can't do this...

A lot of effort you went to in order to post some glamour shots of your boyhood racer dreams on a CX-5 forum, considering you clearly have absolutely no interest in a CX-5. Hats off to you.

 

[kmac720]

A lot of effort? Typing must be real hard over on your end of the internets. (Or maybe the retirement community you live in has Dial-Up still.) The reason I came here was because I DID have interest in a CX-5 as a new daily driver. The fact that DSC can't be disabled removes that interest. I'm sorry I actually use the vehicles I own for more than a billboard for my AARP sticker. Continue with your regularly scheduled episode of Matlock.

Thanks to everyone else for the useful insight, good luck and happy driving!

Oh, and last but not least, "Beefy" spotting:

 

[Beefy]

I'm old! Hilarious!

 

[CX-SV]

If you kill someone due to a skid while driving with DSC deliberately off, there are absolutely potential legal issues. Mazda is fairly justified to wipe their hands of it. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

if you kill somebody while driving, you have a problem, doesn't matter if DSC is on or off.

 

[Beefy]

if you kill somebody while driving, you have a problem, doesn't matter if DSC is on or off.

Indeed. But there is a fairly large difference between negligence, and negligence with intent.

Now before the hyperbole police arrive, I am not saying that everyone who turns off DSC wants to or will kill somebody. But given the potential fringe cases, I think it is perfectly justifiable that Mazda - or any other auto manufacturer - does not let you turn DSC off. Despite kmac's bravado I don't think it will lose them any sales, and for the extreme vast majority it is a non-issue.

 

[kmac720]

Indeed. But there is a fairly large difference between negligence, and negligence with intent.

Now before the hyperbole police arrive, I am not saying that everyone who turns off DSC wants to or will kill somebody. But given the potential fringe cases, I think it is perfectly justifiable that Mazda - or any other auto manufacturer - does not let you turn DSC off. Despite kmac's bravado I don't think it will lose them any sales, and for the extreme vast majority it is a non-issue.

Haha, beefcake using the term "hyperbole' that's laughable, (coming from a guy that said, "If you kill someone due to a skid while driving with DSC deliberately off...")

Also Mazda has lost one (me), so your argument is thus rendered false.

 

[CX-SV]

Indeed. But there is a fairly large difference between negligence, and negligence with intent.

Now before the hyperbole police arrive, I am not saying that everyone who turns off DSC wants to or will kill somebody. But given the potential fringe cases, I think it is perfectly justifiable that Mazda - or any other auto manufacturer - does not let you turn DSC off. Despite kmac's bravado I don't think it will lose them any sales, and for the extreme vast majority it is a non-issue.

Big difference between gross negligence and having your DSC on or off. Good luck on proving DSC was on or off when it's selectable. Hyperbole aside (and that's all I see here), I have more actual experience than desired on this matter. A close family member of mine was killed by a negligent driver in 2008 and convicted too. I spent plenty of time in criminal and civil courts on such matters.

Agreed, the driver-selectable on-off switch of DSC on compact SUV such as CX-5 is a non-issue.

 

[vroom]

I also agree that there is no ground for the ability to switch off DSC on compact SUV such as CX-5. The car was never meant or marketed as a rally car or anything similar. For the average user, the ability to turn off a security feature such as this or ABS could even become dangerous in the sense that it could be done inadvertantly, thus endangering the owner. Let's keep in mind the most owners don't even know what DSC even is.

On a side note, how old are you kmac720? 10? Name calling, really? I've been on here a while, and rarely seen such childishness. This is definitely a case where a Mod should step in and clean things up a bit. very little information can be gattered from most of what was said here (apart from the usual insightful comments from veteran members such as CX-SV).

 

[Beefy]

Big difference between gross negligence and having your DSC on or off. Good luck on proving DSC was on or off when it's selectable. Hyperbole aside (and that's all I see here)

You are almost certainly right, but I still have no problem with automakers deciding to play the 'good cop' role here. The negative press in fringe enthusiast forums like this just aren't relevant in the grand scheme.

 

[CX-SV]

You are almost certainly right, but I still have no problem with automakers deciding to play the 'good cop' role here. The negative press in fringe enthusiast forums like this just aren't relevant in the grand scheme.

Agreed, no significant impact CX-5 sales by having driver-selectable DSC. I doubt major automakers look for much constructive criticism on these forums. We've seen some doozies for suggestions already...

In contrast my 2007 Lexus IS350 has it, the 2006's did not. Lexus made the change in 2007.

 

[kmac720]

I also agree that there is no ground for the ability to switch off DSC on compact SUV such as CX-5. The car was never meant or marketed as a rally car or anything similar. For the average user, the ability to turn off a security feature such as this or ABS could even become dangerous in the sense that it could be done inadvertantly, thus endangering the owner. Let's keep in mind the most owners don't even know what DSC even is.

On a side note, how old are you kmac720? 10? Name calling, really? I've been on here a while, and rarely seen such childishness. This is definitely a case where a Mod should step in and clean things up a bit. very little information can be gattered from most of what was said here (apart from the usual insightful comments from veteran members such as CX-SV).

Jeez, you guys are really not fun people. When did I call anyone names? Grandpa? It was inference as to is age, I'm guessing the average age on this section must be pushing it. It should be noted that when we got 15 inches of snow in my parking lot here in MI a few weeks back. One of my employees got stuck in his 2014 GC (Grand Cherokee 4x4) because he didn't realize he needed to disable TC and DSC. (My Subaru did fine plowing snow.) I got in his GC, DISABLED both, "OH NO!!!!!! DANGEROUS!!!!" And was able to get his vehicle unstuck. Even with TC off when he was trying to make the turn to get out, the tires spinning and steering angle was enough to make the DSC kick in and cut power, which kept getting him stuck.

On top of that, even my 80 year old grandpa enjoys doing a little donut or drift in his F350 dually now and again. If you do it in a safe place you aren't hurting anyone. (And learning how to handle a vehicle in an over-steer situation DOES actually make you a better driver, so when one of your cars kicks out like you mentioned above, you don't freak out and get scared...)

Back to your regularly scheduled program of boring-ness.

 

[Chris_Top_Her]

Jeez, you guys are really not fun people. When did I call anyone names? Grandpa? It was inference as to is age, I'm guessing the average age on this section must be pushing it. It should be noted that when we got 15 inches of snow in my parking lot here in MI a few weeks back. One of my employees got stuck in his 2014 GC (Grand Cherokee 4x4) because he didn't realize he needed to disable TC and DSC. (My Subaru did fine plowing snow.) I got in his GC, DISABLED both, "OH NO!!!!!! DANGEROUS!!!!" And was able to get his vehicle unstuck. Even with TC off when he was trying to make the turn to get out, the tires spinning and steering angle was enough to make the DSC kick in and cut power, which kept getting him stuck.

On top of that, even my 80 year old grandpa enjoys doing a little donut or drift in his F350 dually now and again. If you do it in a safe place you aren't hurting anyone. (And learning how to handle a vehicle in an over-steer situation DOES actually make you a better driver, so when one of your cars kicks out like you mentioned above, you don't freak out and get scared...)

Back to your regularly scheduled program of boring-ness.

I remember the first time I got into a high speed (accidental) hydro plane on a long curve, 2 lane interchange. As soon as I realized what was happening I noticed it felt exactly like I was doing a powerslide around a short sharp curve,and I treated it as such. 70mph slide a few degrees off center.. didn't leave my lane (and a car was outside of me). It was a little scary but tbh it probably looked like I was pro drifting if you saw it lol.

 

[Beefy]

Jeez, you guys are really not fun people.

The CX-5 is almost universally praised as the best handling and most dynamic compact SUV. If you can't find a way to have fun in one without disabling DSC, then there is something rather wrong with you.

 

[kmac720]

The CX-5 is almost universally praised as the best handling and most dynamic compact SUV. If you can't find a way to have fun in one without disabling DSC, then there is something rather wrong with you.

Haha, "The CX-5 is almost universally praised as the best handling and most dynamic compact SUV." This is on dry pavement. Sure it's got a nice chassis, and is fun in the dry, (Why do you think I was considering it??)

We are talking about in the SNOW, have you missed this? There is basically no reason to have AWD unless you want to hoon in the snow, or drive off-road. (Which a CX-5 IS NOT a capable vehicle off-road.) In the snow, FWD with snow tires will get you anywhere. (I lived in Summit County, Colorado, and made it to many a powder day over Vail, Loveland, and Berthoud Passes in a FWD car on snows regularly, we often too my car OVER a 4x4 F150 on all seasons.)

 

[Beefy]

We are talking about in the SNOW, have you missed this? There is basically no reason to have AWD unless you want to hoon in the snow, or drive off-road.

Location: Winnipeg.

we often too my car OVER a 4x4 F150 on all seasons

And then your grandpa did donuts? Cool! I'm out.......

 

[kmac720]

Location: Winnipeg. Fun you've had in the snow? ZERO...

Yes my grandfather still likes to have some fun, made for a fun childhood! In fact he and my parent's insisted that I learn how to slide a car before I even had a license, kept me out of the ditch on several occasions as an adult.

Hell, even in the dry you'd want to have DSC off for an autocross, track days etc. (Yes you can do these events in a cross over, people drive pick ups at an autocross, check one out, you might learn something.)

 

[V8toilet]

FWD CX5 here and the back end attempted to come out on mine while aggressively negotiating an off ramp in cold weather around a sharp corner that my CX5 normally handles with poise in warmer weather. The DSC kicked in, brakes pulsed, and lights were illuminated and all of a sudden it fish tailed a little and was back on track. Thank God for DSC and that incident also hurt the corning confidence I had in my CX5 in cold weather. It does seem to have a feeling of wanting to over steer and that incident confirmed my suspicions. It seems that Mazda engineers are trying to get the rear tires to take on more of the corning loads to increase its handling limits in dry warm weather and relying on DSC to control it. Also if you notice in some slalom testing like the one CR did where one of the rear tires actually lifts off the ground during high speed corning maneuvers. I personally dont mind these handling characteristics of this SUV and for the rest of the time I think not having so much understeer makes this thing fun to drive.

See rear tire lift in the middle of this vedio http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZATPPkHQp1Y

 

[whiteline]

The manual says DSC is active only at speeds above 15 km/h (9mph). So this could be the explanation for the tail happiness on ice at very slow speeds.