Anyone have better gears yet???

[MP3racer]

Last weekend we were at Mosport for the Ontario Touring Car race series. The car was working great! I was in second place with a lap and a half to go and I lost fourth gear(pissed) . So I gather it up, shift from third to fifth down the long straight and coming on the the front straight I loose third gear and the tranny locks up(shocked) . I pull over and radio to my crew chief who tells me it is the last lap. So I try to find any gears now and the only one I have is first so I putt, putt it around the whole near 3 mile track in first gear to take fourth place. Would have loved that podium place but took the fourth as well....

So has anyone found anything yet in the way of other gears whatever to help these darn trannies live??????

All help much appreciated!!!

 

[MP3racer]

Here's a pic from the weekend....

 

[03.5MSP]

The gtx grears work with our tranny, and are said to be much stronger.
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123632293&highlight=gtx+gears

 

[MP3racer]

The gtx grears work with our tranny, and are said to be much stronger.
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123632293&highlight=gtx+gears

Anybody have any data on how much power they are able to take and how much longer life the GTX gears have over stock???

 

[Focus]

Anybody have any data on how much power they are able to take and how much longer life the GTX gears have over stock???

For any type of racing, this will not help much as it is a band-aid fix... I have measured both the stock and gtx gears and the only advantage is (If I recall correctly) an 11 Rockwell hardness advantage with the GTX gears.

Having said that, the reason this is a band aid, is that the problem is not with the gears themselves, but rather with oil delivery to the syncros. Not enough oil gets to the synchro and it starts to seize, taking the gear with it.

Do a search on the forums, anyone that has broken a gear , has done it fully engaged in the gear, not between shifts...

There is only one real long term solution, but it is a costly one. Replacing the whole gearset with an aftermarket one...

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109454

 

[MP3racer]

For any type of racing, this will not help much as it is a band-aid fix... I have measured both the stock and gtx gears and the only advantage is (If I recall correctly) an 11 Rockwell hardness advantage with the GTX gears.

Having said that, the reason this is a band aid, is that the problem is not with the gears themselves, but rather with oil delivery to the syncros. Not enough oil gets to the synchro and it starts to seize, taking the gear with it.

Do a search on the forums, anyone that has broken a gear , has done it fully engaged in the gear, not between shifts...

There is only one real long term solution, but it is a costly one. Replacing the whole gearset with an aftermarket one...

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109454

I'm not sure I agree the problem lies with oiling to the gears....
We have had broken gears evaluated by a metallurgist and the determination was that the problem stemmed from the gears being "too hard". Mazda manufactures the gears with the intention to make them last long and wear better, therfore increasing their hardness. To help prevent breakage at the root of the gear teeth (as has happened with most racing protege transmissions) you need a gear with a lower rockwell hardness (very simplified explanation here) to "bend" a bit to absorb the shock and stress and not crack and break. Once one of the teeth cracks and then shears off at its root the counter gear act like a chisel and just shears off the rest of the teeth on that gear.

As for the aftermarket gear sets, Mazda had some done for the NA World challenge cars but the ratios are way off for our car with a turbo. Also, the other manufacturer MAM sourced Mazda had tried as well with very poor results.

We have looked at re-heat treating the gears. The problem is that to increase hardness is easy. To decrease it there are problems with dimensionsal stability and so far no one wants to attempt it.

I have another company interested in doing some gears but the minimum number of sets they need to get started is the stumbling block....

So I guess for now I too may try the band-aid of the GTX gears.....

Thanks for the input!

 

[sr240z]

why don't you get someone to copy our gears in a straight cut pattern and to your specs?

 

[MP3racer]

why don't you get someone to copy our gears in a straight cut pattern and to your specs?

We have looked into that...the problem is that the minimum number of sets they will make is in the 40-50 range. I don't think we could get that many people interested.

 

[Focus]

I'm not sure I agree the problem lies with oiling to the gears....
We have had broken gears evaluated by a metallurgist and the determination was that the problem stemmed from the gears being "too hard". Mazda manufactures the gears with the intention to make them last long and wear better, therfore increasing their hardness. To help prevent breakage at the root of the gear teeth (as has happened with most racing protege transmissions) you need a gear with a lower rockwell hardness (very simplified explanation here) to "bend" a bit to absorb the shock and stress and not crack and break. Once one of the teeth cracks and then shears off at its root the counter gear act like a chisel and just shears off the rest of the teeth on that gear.

If this is the case then the GTX gears will not help as they are 11 Rockwell Harder.

In my case where I broke 3rd gear twice both times the syncro shows burns and seizing marks. Maybe you can take a look at yours see if it's the same.

There is a problem deffinately in the oiling as Mazda uses sleeve bushing to mount the gears and not enough oil gets through to the synchro.

The gearset I showed you in the thread earlier solves this problem my mounting the gears on needle bearings, also the material used is EN56, much better suited for gearsets... At a price $$$, you got to pay to play.

As for the aftermarket gear sets, Mazda had some done for the NA World challenge cars but the ratios are way off for our car with a turbo. Also, the other manufacturer MAM sourced Mazda had tried as well with very poor results.

There are two companies EMCO and another that slips my mind right now, that made gears before, but yes the ratios are whack, they are strictly for racing...

B.T.W. can only be purchased from Mazda Motorsports...


Like I said if you need gears that are not as hard GTX gears will not fit the bill...

 

[sr240z]

I would buy a straight cut gear set if the 5th gear was still helical. Also it may be a good idea to contact Quaiffe or Precision Gear about buillding you a dog gearset in the stock housing unless your racing rules don't allow it.... I know quaiffe does one offs and I'm sure Precision would too.

 

[Focus]

I would buy a straight cut gear set if the 5th gear was still helical. Also it may be a good idea to contact Quaiffe or Precision Gear about buillding you a dog gearset in the stock housing unless your racing rules don't allow it.... I know quaiffe does one offs and I'm sure Precision would too.

5th gear is on the outside you can put anything you want there !!!

Precision or quaife will be a lot more than $2800 USD !!!

 

[.mazda.speed.]

mp3racer how much hp do you have?

 

[MP3racer]

If this is the case then the GTX gears will not help as they are 11 Rockwell Harder.

In my case where I broke 3rd gear twice both times the syncro shows burns and seizing marks. Maybe you can take a look at yours see if it's the same.

There is a problem deffinately in the oiling as Mazda uses sleeve bushing to mount the gears and not enough oil gets through to the synchro.

The gearset I showed you in the thread earlier solves this problem my mounting the gears on needle bearings, also the material used is EN56, much better suited for gearsets... At a price $$$, you got to pay to play.




There are two companies EMCO and another that slips my mind right now, that made gears before, but yes the ratios are whack, they are strictly for racing...

B.T.W. can only be purchased from Mazda Motorsports...


Like I said if you need gears that are not as hard GTX gears will not fit the bill...

The EMCO gears were an improvement but still broke, this time after four race weekends rather than two with the stock gears. Not worth the major difference in price in my opinion. The other comapny I think is PAR. A few teams tried them and found them to be no better than stock in terms of time before breakage.
The EMCO gears are available through Mazda. The PAR can be purchased directly if you want to throw your money away.....

We talked with Quaiffe on producing some gears. We looked at just replacing 3rd and 4th (and using stock for the rest) since those are the only ones we have broken. The price would be much less than the $2800. In fact it would probably be closer to $500 for a pair of gears but the minimum number required to get them made is what kills it.

As far as the HP we have, well it depends on how much boost I'm running

And yes, the cases do tend to heat up and expand a bit allowing more movement in the gears but so do the Honda trannies, and the VW trannies, etc that we run against and they don't seem to break gears as often. Althought the team from Honda of Canada did break a tranny this weekend.....

BTW, I have only seen the GTX gears in pictures but they do seem a bit beefier than the stock protege....Anyone compare one in person???

 

[03.5MSP]

Anybody have any data on how much power they are able to take and how much longer life the GTX gears have over stock???

I know there is a mazda 323 with a FSDE running close to 500whp and running the gtx gears.

 

[JDM Sam]

ahh the downfall of an econobox

 

[sr240z]

How Much Would Straight Cut Gears Cost? I'm Sure There Are 40+ Protege's And Other Mazdas That Share Gearbox Gears Out There.

 

[MrDiggler]

MP3Racer, I'm sure you know the Fountain Motorsports team. One of their ideas was to run a tranny cooler. Might help some.

I've heard from a couple of peeps that swear that the G-series tranny failures are a known issue with Probes, and that they fix it with a brace that keeps the tranny from spreading the shafts apart. Unfortuately I have no idea where I ran across this info or if it's even accurate. It still makes me wonder, though.

I would lean toward the GTX (or 626?) gears for an interim fix. Also, if you find someone capable of fixing the tranny problem for less than $500-600 per tranny, count me in for at least one...if not two. I've got Fountain's spare motor and would love to unleash it, if only the tranny would hold.

 

[low_psi]

What about creating a jig/female mold to place the gears in during the annealing process? If you can find a metal that deforms at a slower rate than the gears, you may be able to soften it and stay within the physical tolerances.

I have experience with parts deforming from heat treatment and its a real pain in the butt, so I feel your pain.

There's a local shop that only deals with gear cutting/splining, maybe there's one in your area that will do short run parts for a decent price.

 

[MP3racer]

MP3Racer, I'm sure you know the Fountain Motorsports team. One of their ideas was to run a tranny cooler. Might help some.

I've heard from a couple of peeps that swear that the G-series tranny failures are a known issue with Probes, and that they fix it with a brace that keeps the tranny from spreading the shafts apart. Unfortuately I have no idea where I ran across this info or if it's even accurate. It still makes me wonder, though.

I would lean toward the GTX (or 626?) gears for an interim fix. Also, if you find someone capable of fixing the tranny problem for less than $500-600 per tranny, count me in for at least one...if not two. I've got Fountain's spare motor and would love to unleash it, if only the tranny would hold.

Yeah, I know Fountain Motorsports since my friend Joe built their car using mine "to copy".

Yeah, I started the cooler thing...doesn't really seem to help much. Looking at our downloads of tranny temps lately the tranny doesn't really look like it's getting all that hot without running the pump/cooler so we are actually looking at taking it off.

Anyway, will probably try the GTX gears at the next race...


BTW, if use end up using the race motor let me know. I can swap you for some of the things you may need on the motor to get it into a street car. Let me know....

 

[Metal MP5]

that car's tranny probably doesn't get used as much as this guy's transmission during a race. im sure 1/4 races is alot easier on engines/transmissions than circuit racing.

it's easy to build a car to last 10sec ... try to make it last longer on a track, with other cars, downshifts, etc

I know there is a mazda 323 with a FSDE running close to 500whp and running the gtx gears.