another mazdaspeed CAI thread
- Thread starter SwampAss
- Start date
By the way, when mine arrived, the strap across the filter shield was loose on one end. I drilled holes in the center of each end and put little SS bolts and nylock nuts on. Another possibility would be pop-rivets but I didn't have any handy. I suggest you check yours as the thing would rattle around a lot if the strap is loose. The attachment of the strap is just with some pushed in dimples which seem a bit flakey to me.
ive already got one lol, you suck
SwampAss said:Does anyone have them in stock? As in, I pick up phone, talk to parts person, give them credit card number, and then they send me parts?
Am I a little too early for such a silly notion?
Here's a trippy picture eitherway:
Dynojet Dyno Results with MAZDASPEED CAI here:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3662057&page=6
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3662057&page=6
udontknowjack
Member
- :
- mazda mazdaspeed3
Speedy3 said:
doesnt work
RonTonkinMazda
Member
SwampAss said:Mine is to be delivered today. A day ahead of shedual (say it like a brit)
I'll slap it on in a day or 3.
Thanks RonTatonka Mazda!
Justin is good people BTW
lol Ron Tatonka Mazda....
Ron Tonkin Mazda
glad to hear it came in early that never happens with UPS
-Josh
Bakrauf said:
Sorry:
http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=6
"http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123662057&page=6"
Speedy, you've ignored my request for fuel trim data. Did you miss it, or do you not have the a scan tool? If not, I understand.
I wrote this on another board, but it belongs in this thread too:
Yikes! Somebody measure their fuel trims with this intake.
The MAF is mounted after a bend in the pipe which is a HUGE no-no. Actually, it's between bends, which is even worse. Your MAF accuracy is going to be terrible. This intake is producing huge dyno numbers because it is leaning out the air/fuel ratio, plain and simple. While it feel may good, you're screwing yourself in the long run.
In fact, Cobb tuning (respectable company) once tested an intake that put the MAF after a curve. It was an SPT intake, which is to Subaru what Mazdaspeed is to Mazda- an official part. They found that since the MAF was mounted after a curve, it would sometimes report the engine getting less air even as actual air flow ROSE, and vice versa. I'll repeat that: as the engine drew in more air, the MAF sometimes reported a lower air velocity.
The dynamics of the air within the pipe varied according to velocity (think about the air going to the outside of the bend), and since the MAF only reads air flow in the center, the MAF accuracy went to hell. This is why all OE airboxes use a straight velocity stack (off of a huge airbox) and put the MAF directly after the opening. This is also why companies who actually do R&D, like Custom Performance Engineering, use expensive CNC'd MAF housings and air straighteners to get the fuel trims back to stock.
Strike two is that this intake clearly uses a MAF on tube design, and aluminum tube is not sold (at least not cheaply) in specific enough diameters for this to work. Mazdaspeed may have the diameter close, but air velocity is, I think, something like a 4th power of pipe diameter, so even being off a small amount means the MAF will be off by a lot. In the Mazda6 community, every intake used a 2.75 or 2.5" pipe- since neither matched the stock diameter, every intake threw a CEL unless it had a fuel tuner to correct the MAF (no exaggeration, every single one ever released). Now, the Mazdaspeeds aren't as quick to set a CEL, but they are every bit as sensitive to pipe changes, and being DISA turbos, MAF accuracy is even more important than a naturally aspirated engine.
Mark my words: this intake is a mis-engineered piece of crap. You might wonder why I'm bitter, and it's because Mazda puts their name on these ho-hum aftermarket parts. It's a disgrace. The Mazdaspeed intake for the Mazda6 was just a rebadged AEM intake that Mazda marked up for more money, and it too threw a CEL.
This intake will work well on a stock car just because they are tuned so incredibly conservative and rich from the factory, but once ECU tuning becomes available, this intake is going to be an Achilles heal. As I said earlier, this intake will dyno high because it leans out the air/fuel ratio- hell, the worse and intake is in this regard, the higher it will dyno. These are what I'd call ricer gains, because Mazdaspeed intake owners will not be able to use Cobb's reflash nor CPE's upcoming piggyback, at least not without paying for custom tuning and dyno time, and MAF corrections are extremely difficult to do even with a Mustang dyno (which a lot of tuners don't even have).
Those who do run ECU tuners may find their engine detonating or worse, since the MAF, which the ECU relies on for fuel metering, won't know what the hell it's reporting. MAF accuracy becomes incredibly important when you tune an engine more aggressively. Without a way to produce an accurate air/fuel ratio, you'll be forced to tune the car very conservatively- like old turbo cars. The ECU won't even know the true load the engine is under. The intake combined with an off-the-shelf ECU tune will surely produce a too-lean situation since the ECU tune will lean out the air/fuel ratio a few points beyond what the intake is tuning- it won't be able to tell that your car's MAF is off. It relies on it. Hell, that's why it's there. Ten years ago cars, turbo cars used MAP sensors, and they had to be tuned conservatively because MAP sensors aren't as accurate. The Mazdaspeed3 has both, but with your intake messing up the MAF, you're essentially taking three steps backwards.
Anyway, I know everyone's excited because it's a cheap way to make horsepower, but please understand why it makes that power and what the long-term consequences are. If you're fine with buying an intake with the engineering pedigree of one of those "eBay resistors" (they make power the same way, throwing off the MAF!), then go ahead. Free market and such. However, I'd strongly recommend owners instead get an intake like Custom Performance Engineering's, since it keeps your MAF accurate while still alleviating the pressure drop, so it'll be balls-on accurate with piggybacks and ECU reflashes down the road. It's the proper way to tune, with no parts stepping on one another's heels. But perhaps most importantly, you won't have the inconsistent rise of MAF voltage- the CPE intake keeps this sensor linear and reliable. If you don't want CPE's intake, given the current market options, stay stock and see if another decent design hits the market.
I wrote this on another board, but it belongs in this thread too:
Yikes! Somebody measure their fuel trims with this intake.
The MAF is mounted after a bend in the pipe which is a HUGE no-no. Actually, it's between bends, which is even worse. Your MAF accuracy is going to be terrible. This intake is producing huge dyno numbers because it is leaning out the air/fuel ratio, plain and simple. While it feel may good, you're screwing yourself in the long run.
In fact, Cobb tuning (respectable company) once tested an intake that put the MAF after a curve. It was an SPT intake, which is to Subaru what Mazdaspeed is to Mazda- an official part. They found that since the MAF was mounted after a curve, it would sometimes report the engine getting less air even as actual air flow ROSE, and vice versa. I'll repeat that: as the engine drew in more air, the MAF sometimes reported a lower air velocity.
The dynamics of the air within the pipe varied according to velocity (think about the air going to the outside of the bend), and since the MAF only reads air flow in the center, the MAF accuracy went to hell. This is why all OE airboxes use a straight velocity stack (off of a huge airbox) and put the MAF directly after the opening. This is also why companies who actually do R&D, like Custom Performance Engineering, use expensive CNC'd MAF housings and air straighteners to get the fuel trims back to stock.
Strike two is that this intake clearly uses a MAF on tube design, and aluminum tube is not sold (at least not cheaply) in specific enough diameters for this to work. Mazdaspeed may have the diameter close, but air velocity is, I think, something like a 4th power of pipe diameter, so even being off a small amount means the MAF will be off by a lot. In the Mazda6 community, every intake used a 2.75 or 2.5" pipe- since neither matched the stock diameter, every intake threw a CEL unless it had a fuel tuner to correct the MAF (no exaggeration, every single one ever released). Now, the Mazdaspeeds aren't as quick to set a CEL, but they are every bit as sensitive to pipe changes, and being DISA turbos, MAF accuracy is even more important than a naturally aspirated engine.
Mark my words: this intake is a mis-engineered piece of crap. You might wonder why I'm bitter, and it's because Mazda puts their name on these ho-hum aftermarket parts. It's a disgrace. The Mazdaspeed intake for the Mazda6 was just a rebadged AEM intake that Mazda marked up for more money, and it too threw a CEL.
This intake will work well on a stock car just because they are tuned so incredibly conservative and rich from the factory, but once ECU tuning becomes available, this intake is going to be an Achilles heal. As I said earlier, this intake will dyno high because it leans out the air/fuel ratio- hell, the worse and intake is in this regard, the higher it will dyno. These are what I'd call ricer gains, because Mazdaspeed intake owners will not be able to use Cobb's reflash nor CPE's upcoming piggyback, at least not without paying for custom tuning and dyno time, and MAF corrections are extremely difficult to do even with a Mustang dyno (which a lot of tuners don't even have).
Those who do run ECU tuners may find their engine detonating or worse, since the MAF, which the ECU relies on for fuel metering, won't know what the hell it's reporting. MAF accuracy becomes incredibly important when you tune an engine more aggressively. Without a way to produce an accurate air/fuel ratio, you'll be forced to tune the car very conservatively- like old turbo cars. The ECU won't even know the true load the engine is under. The intake combined with an off-the-shelf ECU tune will surely produce a too-lean situation since the ECU tune will lean out the air/fuel ratio a few points beyond what the intake is tuning- it won't be able to tell that your car's MAF is off. It relies on it. Hell, that's why it's there. Ten years ago cars, turbo cars used MAP sensors, and they had to be tuned conservatively because MAP sensors aren't as accurate. The Mazdaspeed3 has both, but with your intake messing up the MAF, you're essentially taking three steps backwards.
Anyway, I know everyone's excited because it's a cheap way to make horsepower, but please understand why it makes that power and what the long-term consequences are. If you're fine with buying an intake with the engineering pedigree of one of those "eBay resistors" (they make power the same way, throwing off the MAF!), then go ahead. Free market and such. However, I'd strongly recommend owners instead get an intake like Custom Performance Engineering's, since it keeps your MAF accurate while still alleviating the pressure drop, so it'll be balls-on accurate with piggybacks and ECU reflashes down the road. It's the proper way to tune, with no parts stepping on one another's heels. But perhaps most importantly, you won't have the inconsistent rise of MAF voltage- the CPE intake keeps this sensor linear and reliable. If you don't want CPE's intake, given the current market options, stay stock and see if another decent design hits the market.
Speedy3 said:
Speedy, I think the your "scanner dyno" results and these real-life dyno results are confirming something: that the ECU doesn't know what it's doing anymore. The reported gains from users are anywhere between 10hp and 35hp!
I'd estimate the gains from relieving the pressure drop in the intake path should amount to 15-20hp; anything more or less is likely coming from the air/fuel ratio changing. Either it'll lean it out (see above post) and you'll make more power than expected, or the car will get confused and make too large of a correction- and perhaps even pull timing- resulting in lower-than-expected gains. See, when you have the MAF after a bend, the correction needed at an RPM and load will not be the same as the same RPM but a different load. The ECU can't deal with this, but it tries, and these "tries" may be why power gains are so inconsistent.
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I don't have any, but I know I've seen them. Anyone got a link? Maybe CPE can post some pictures. I can certainly explain what I know of their system, though I'm sure CPE can explain it better than I can.
CPE puts the MAF after a bend (a no-no), but they used air straighteners after the bend. Air straighteners work (I've seen them used in OE cars- I think the Maxima uses them?), but usually at the expense of air flow. CPE puts them in the large diameter pipe before the MAF housing to alleviate flow problems while still reducing the turbulence created by the bend.
After the straighteners, CPE welds in their MAF housing. This housing is CNC'd from a solid block of aluminum- it is NOT made from normal aluminum tubing. This is expensive and time consuming to produce, but the CNC machine lets them make extremely precise and intricate shapes- a necessity. CPE uses this flexibility to taper the pipe down right at the MAF housing to create a spot-on match to the stock MAF calibration. I don't think it tapers down completely to the stock size, which is why it can still alleviate the huge pressure drop around the MAF, but because they can shape this mount any way they want, they can direct air to the MAF as needed to match the stock calibration.
After the MAF housing, CPE tapers back up to "normal" aluminum tubing.
I don't think anybody else in the industry does this, probably because it's an expensive and time-consuming process. Like I said, perhaps CPE will chime in or someone else can post pictures of what I'm talking about.
The Mazdaspeed intake is just one big incorrectly-sized tube with a MAF housing. This is very cheap and easy to produce and manufacture- a high profit solution. However, the MAF sensor's accuracy is compromised for the reasons I explained in the previous post.
CPE puts the MAF after a bend (a no-no), but they used air straighteners after the bend. Air straighteners work (I've seen them used in OE cars- I think the Maxima uses them?), but usually at the expense of air flow. CPE puts them in the large diameter pipe before the MAF housing to alleviate flow problems while still reducing the turbulence created by the bend.
After the straighteners, CPE welds in their MAF housing. This housing is CNC'd from a solid block of aluminum- it is NOT made from normal aluminum tubing. This is expensive and time consuming to produce, but the CNC machine lets them make extremely precise and intricate shapes- a necessity. CPE uses this flexibility to taper the pipe down right at the MAF housing to create a spot-on match to the stock MAF calibration. I don't think it tapers down completely to the stock size, which is why it can still alleviate the huge pressure drop around the MAF, but because they can shape this mount any way they want, they can direct air to the MAF as needed to match the stock calibration.
After the MAF housing, CPE tapers back up to "normal" aluminum tubing.
I don't think anybody else in the industry does this, probably because it's an expensive and time-consuming process. Like I said, perhaps CPE will chime in or someone else can post pictures of what I'm talking about.
The Mazdaspeed intake is just one big incorrectly-sized tube with a MAF housing. This is very cheap and easy to produce and manufacture- a high profit solution. However, the MAF sensor's accuracy is compromised for the reasons I explained in the previous post.
RonTonkinMazda
Member
stretch does not even own a speed3 he has not seen a MS CAI in person or a CPE it is a shame that someone speeds so much time bashing a product the know nothing about.
www.cp-e.com
Member
stretch said:
Thanks for explaining the process to everyone stretch. I think people are assuming that our MAF housing is 2.75" like the Mazdaspeed piece, but it is not. we can't disclose the diameter we use, but it is NOT 2.75", it is smaller than that by a good margin. And we don't do that to restrict flow, we do it so we can properly meter the air.
I think it would help if I posted a picture of our MAF housings in transition from raw aluminum into a MAF housing.
In the picture above, you can see the progress from left to right. We start with a 3" aluminum tube and we machine it to the dimensions we want. The center MAF housing has all the correct dimensions, but it still needs an airflow straightener and a MAF flange. Finally, on the right is the finished product, but with the airflow straightener our of the housing so everyone can see it.
And here is a shot of our airflow straightener compared to the stock one. They're similar, but no the same! We had to tweak their design to get it to work properly with our MAF housing.
And we don't do all this extra work because we think its fun, we do it because not paying attention to these details could cause problems later down the road when you continue adding aftermarket parts to the car. Stretch is right on with his arguments.
Jordan
