2016 CX-5 AWD System Questions

[HyFlyer]

I had Forscan on my phone before I had to reset it, now it can't be installed on Android apparently because of some bad blood between Forscan and Google play. Does anyone know of another app like it? Was a damn good app.

According to FORscan on their website https://forscan.org/ under the "what's new" tab ...

December 26, 2022 - FORScan Lite v1.5.16, FORScan Demo v1.5.16 for Android are released

Due to another blocking of our account and application on Google Play, starting from this version we will distribute it only through our own site. We had to issue two editions of FORScan Lite for Android: Google Play Edition for users who purchased license on Google Play and Independent Edition for new users. More information can be found on our Support page.

You should be able to get it directly from their website for your Android device. Maybe have to change a setting on your device to accept third party vendors in play store. At least long enough to install FORscan.

 

[madar]

yeah, had to go through some rigamaroll, but finally got it installed. Have to dig up my old license somewhere to complete the install. I was getting a "cannot install on your device" error before. Forgot about the 3rd party thing.

https://www.forscan.org/support/sho...sue=la_will_not_be_distributed_through_google

 

[sinistriel@]

Interesting. Is this CUP_SOL available on Torque Pro? I can't find it. Can it be added?

Torque can read the coupling data. This does not work on the 7th gen(3, CX-30, CX-50) cars but is accurate for the CX-5/9 vehicles.
I'm actively sniffing the CAN bus and will have some updated PIDs for those cars in the future.

PID = 221e7a
Coupling Solenoid Duty Cycle (long name)
CUP SOL (short name)
min value =0
max value =100
Scale = x1
Units = %
Equation = A*100/255
OBD Header = 761

A couple things to note when talking about torque split front and rear and one of the reasons Mazda does not quote 50/50, 60/40 etc. In the real world it does not actually equate to those figures. It's all over the place based on the wheels grip, load, weight, etc. Many OEMS like to quote that in literature to make it a little easier to digest. 50/50 just denotes the coupling is locked to the point that power "can" go evenly front to back. Another thing to note is how the coupling works the solenoid percentage does not equate straight over to a targeted torque being sent to the rear. The system will also react quicker than OBD protocol can map so there will be some lag but you can get the general operation of the system from that.

The coupling has two clutches, an electromagnet that is very close to an AC compressor clutch and then the clutch that transmits power. The solenoid is showing how much that electromagnet is being applied to a ball cam system which then pushes up against the clutch pack that moves the power. The coupling is made by JTEKT and is called the ITCC. Its used by many OEMs in different power configurations and outer assemblies but the operational structure is the same. In the non 7th gen cars the system is almost always sending an amount of power to the rear, in very tight turns it will drop to zero to prevent binding.

It gets more complicated on the 7th gen vehicles because the rear can "receive" more torque than the front does because of the gear ratio difference between the transfer case and rear differential. I'm working on a video to break down what is actually taking place in real time to help people understand it easier.

 

[HyFlyer]

@sinistriel@ , thanks for the details and insider's explanation of what's going on in the coupler. I appreciate it

One of the reasons I have various pid's pulled up on a page to monitor is just to get a feeling for how things are under normal operations so I can notice the difference when (if?) things aren't right. Pressures and temperatures and levels.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

OBD Fusion or OBD Link

Fusion you have to purchase each make model year expansion pack. Link includes them all and is bundled with it’s own OBD adapter.

 

[sinistriel@]

@sinistriel@ , thanks for the details and insider's explanation of what's going on in the coupler. I appreciate it

One of the reasons I have various pid's pulled up on a page to monitor is just to get a feeling for how things are under normal operations so I can notice the difference when (if?) things aren't right. Pressures and temperatures and levels.

Not a problem. When I have relevant information, have the time to chime in and when it looks like people want to learn I'll give information when I can.

I'm a proponent of people that are interested monitoring their vehicles. You can learn a lot just by watching.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

@sinistriel@

Thanks for chiming in. Great info!!

You got me looking around for JTEKT ITCC info now

https://jtkmarketing.s3.amazonaws.com/filer_public/49/77/4977401b-549c-469d-95d0-12fff0365488/d1002ex_itcc_-_intelligent_tourque_controlled_coupling.pdf

 

[sinistriel@]

@sinistriel@

Thanks for chiming in. Great info!!

You got me looking around for JTEKT ITCC info now

https://jtkmarketing.s3.amazonaws.com/filer_public/49/77/4977401b-549c-469d-95d0-12fff0365488/d1002ex_itcc_-_intelligent_tourque_controlled_coupling.pdf

They are great units, lightweight, robust and incredibly accurate with torque distribution. Mazda uses the gen 3 in the FWD system and JTEKT engineered a new version that works on the new FR platform for the CX-60/70/80/90.

JTEKT's newly developed "ITCC® for FR-based 4WD vehicles" and "Lightweight and Compact Motorized Rake Tilt & Telescopic Steering Column" are installed in Mazda CX-60.｜News｜JTEKT CORPORATION

This is the official corporate website of JTEKT, which continues to take on the challenge of being No.1 & Only One, solves all kinds of social issues, and contributes to the earth, society, and customers.

www.jtekt.co.jp

 

[ColtX-5]

You can download the apk from Forscan's website and side load it. Apple and google have confiscatory fees. If you are unwilling, they lock your account.

 

[trungpham]

I can offer on my 2019 I use the FORscan app and have the "4x4 module coupling solenoid duty cycle" displayed on my daily drive page. It typically reads 7.45% under normal dry good traction driving. I interpret that to mean under normal driving, I'm getting 92.55% of the power to the front wheels and 7.45% to the rear wheels.

View attachment 317204


On a slightly snowy morning a few weeks ago, I was purposely being aggressive with throttle brake and steering with the (slightly) reduced traction. It was only about a 5 minute drive but the graph of the resulting rear coupler duty cycle looked like this ...

View attachment 317205


It seems to react very quickly, almost instantly to wheel slip and transfers power to the rear but doesn't just keep it in there, rather only what is necessary to keep the wheels from spinning.

I do like how I can line up certain pid's to show what I'm interested in. For example, I could line up on a graph like that, Throttle position, % torque, RPM, speed, and coupler % to see how they all relate on playback.

I imagine your gen1 operates similarly.

Thanks to you guys now I'm interested in playing around with Forscan . I'm ordering the bluetooth adapter, the cheaper one which is Vlinker FD+. Do you know if the Vlinker can display CUP_SOL, or only the more expensive one (OBDLink MX+) can?

 

[trungpham]

Torque can read the coupling data. This does not work on the 7th gen(3, CX-30, CX-50) cars but is accurate for the CX-5/9 vehicles.
I'm actively sniffing the CAN bus and will have some updated PIDs for those cars in the future.

PID = 221e7a
Coupling Solenoid Duty Cycle (long name)
CUP SOL (short name)
min value =0
max value =100
Scale = x1
Units = %
Equation = A*100/255
OBD Header = 761

A couple things to note when talking about torque split front and rear and one of the reasons Mazda does not quote 50/50, 60/40 etc. In the real world it does not actually equate to those figures. It's all over the place based on the wheels grip, load, weight, etc. Many OEMS like to quote that in literature to make it a little easier to digest. 50/50 just denotes the coupling is locked to the point that power "can" go evenly front to back. Another thing to note is how the coupling works the solenoid percentage does not equate straight over to a targeted torque being sent to the rear. The system will also react quicker than OBD protocol can map so there will be some lag but you can get the general operation of the system from that.

The coupling has two clutches, an electromagnet that is very close to an AC compressor clutch and then the clutch that transmits power. The solenoid is showing how much that electromagnet is being applied to a ball cam system which then pushes up against the clutch pack that moves the power. The coupling is made by JTEKT and is called the ITCC. Its used by many OEMs in different power configurations and outer assemblies but the operational structure is the same. In the non 7th gen cars the system is almost always sending an amount of power to the rear, in very tight turns it will drop to zero to prevent binding.

It gets more complicated on the 7th gen vehicles because the rear can "receive" more torque than the front does because of the gear ratio difference between the transfer case and rear differential. I'm working on a video to break down what is actually taking place in real time to help people understand it easier.

thanks so much for the detailed explanation mate. A lot of things learnt

 

[HyFlyer]

Thanks to you guys now I'm interested in playing around with Forscan . I'm ordering the bluetooth adapter, the cheaper one which is Vlinker FD+. Do you know if the Vlinker can display CUP_SOL, or only the more expensive one (OBDLink MX+) can?

I use the FD+ (I picked that over the FD for the apple ios support. I use android but my brother uses apple products in case he wanted to try it out)

I'm not that familiar with the MX+ but in looking it up on the V Linker website it seems like you meant MC+ ... That appears to have WiFi and compatibility with Windows operating systems.

The FD+ will work fine for you if you are using an android or iOS platform device. If you are getting into deeper programming I think you would want an actual cable connection.

Just make sure you are getting your FD+ (or FC+) from a reputable source so you don't end up with a counterfeit device.

Do you know if the Vlinker can display CUP_SOL, or only the more expensive one (OBDLink MX+) can?

Yes, the FD+ will access the 4x4 module and you can display the coupler solenoid pid.

Here is a list of the modules of the car that the FORscan lite version accesses ...

 

[trungpham]

I use the FD+ (I picked that over the FD for the apple ios support. I use android but my brother uses apple products in case he wanted to try it out)

I'm not that familiar with the MX+ but in looking it up on the V Linker website it seems like you meant MC+ ... That appears to have WiFi and compatibility with Windows operating systems.

The FD+ will work fine for you if you are using an android or iOS platform device. If you are getting into deeper programming I think you would want an actual cable connection.

Just make sure you are getting your FD+ (or FC+) from a reputable source so you don't end up with a counterfeit device.



Yes, the FD+ will access the 4x4 module and you can display the coupler solenoid pid.

Here is a list of the modules of the car that the FORscan lite version accesses ...

View attachment 317310

awesome mate, thank you!

PS: the MX+ I mentioned is not from V Linker, instead it's from OBD Link as I understand:

OBDLink® MX+ - Outstanding Bluetooth-Compatible OBD II Scan Tool

The OBDLink® MX+ is the top-of-the-line OBD II scan tool to use with forscan and comes with bluetooth. Get one here today and gain access to your vehicle!

www.obdlink.com

It's the first recommendation from Forscan as I saw on the Forscan website but it's a tad expensive.

Nevermind, as you said the V Link FD+ can just do it fine so I guess I will be fine

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

I’ve used that MX+ for a number of years now… but it has gone up in price. They do often release firmware updates for it and also comes with all the included expansion packs for most model years and makes.

 

[sinistriel@]

thanks so much for the detailed explanation mate. A lot of things learnt

I did end up making a video about the basic functionality of the AWD system using my own turbo 3. Mechanically the systems are very close and from what I've observed monitoring the CX-5 and CX-9 they operate similarly. The biggest difference being the transfer case and rear differential sharing the same gear ratio on the CX-5 and CX-9 vs the other cars having a slight difference between the two.

Mazda evolved i-ACTIV AWD real world examples.

I've been talking about making this video off and on and had some time to put it together. The evolved version of i-ACTIV has some neat tricks up its sleeve ...

youtu.be

 

[trungpham]

I did end up making a video about the basic functionality of the AWD system using my own turbo 3. Mechanically the systems are very close and from what I've observed monitoring the CX-5 and CX-9 they operate similarly. The biggest difference being the transfer case and rear differential sharing the same gear ratio on the CX-5 and CX-9 vs the other cars having a slight difference between the two.

Mazda evolved i-ACTIV AWD real world examples.

I've been talking about making this video off and on and had some time to put it together. The evolved version of i-ACTIV has some neat tricks up its sleeve ...

youtu.be

Awesome mate

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

I encourage everyone to look at some of sinistriel@'s
other videos around the SkyActiv transmission. Good Info!!

https://www.youtube.com/@21mazda3turbo3/videos

 

[trungpham]

I can offer on my 2019 I use the FORscan app and have the "4x4 module coupling solenoid duty cycle" displayed on my daily drive page. It typically reads 7.45% under normal dry good traction driving. I interpret that to mean under normal driving, I'm getting 92.55% of the power to the front wheels and 7.45% to the rear wheels.

View attachment 317204


On a slightly snowy morning a few weeks ago, I was purposely being aggressive with throttle brake and steering with the (slightly) reduced traction. It was only about a 5 minute drive but the graph of the resulting rear coupler duty cycle looked like this ...

View attachment 317205


It seems to react very quickly, almost instantly to wheel slip and transfers power to the rear but doesn't just keep it in there, rather only what is necessary to keep the wheels from spinning.

I do like how I can line up certain pid's to show what I'm interested in. For example, I could line up on a graph like that, Throttle position, % torque, RPM, speed, and coupler % to see how they all relate on playback.

I imagine your gen1 operates similarly.

I have got my Forscan running. Interestingly, my Gen 1 seems to stabilize at ~14-15% for the normal road condition, instead of your 7.45%. Different between Gen 1 and Gen 2 maybe?

*EDIT: After playing with Forscan for a while, I realize actually it's not that simple. Sometimes on an expressway with high friction surface, I got 9-10%. Sometimes on roads that I guess having lower friction, I got 16-18%. Before, I though all dry tarmacs are the same. Turned out the values are quite different on different surfaces. Seems the system is quite sensitive. I haven't yet got your 7.45% though.

 

[HyFlyer]

I have got my Forscan running. Interestingly, my Gen 1 seems to stabilize at ~14-15% for the normal road condition, instead of your 7.45%. Different between Gen 1 and Gen 2 maybe?View attachment 317622

Could be. I have a 2016.5 AWD touring as well. I could try hooking up to see what reading I get on that.

 

[trungpham]

Could be. I have a 2016.5 AWD touring as well. I could try hooking up to see what reading I get on that.

After playing with Forscan for a while, I realize actually it's not that simple as per my previous observation. Sometimes on an expressway with high friction surface, I got 9-10%. Sometimes on roads that I guess having lower friction, I got 16-18%. Before, I though all dry tarmacs are the same. Turned out the values are quite different on different surfaces. Seems the system is quite sensitive. I haven't yet got your 7.45% though.