200whp. NA. What does it take?

[20EVOLUTION01]

best way to get 200 whp na is to get another car, it would take alot of work to do taht plus when u do , how reliable will this engine be.

if i ever wanted to make a protege fast and had ALOT of money, heres what u do, find a rx7 tt , gut ur protege, make room for the tranny and engine , convert to rwd.. the kill anything that u see on the road.. hehe..

Hey that's what I was thinking of doing later on with time. That would be one killer mod though. A PROTEGE DRIFTER. Like the sound of that. The Rotary would definatley fit in the bay but modding the rear for rear wheel drive is what would be the difficult part.

 

[Gen1GT]

There's ONE advantage of HLAs(well, I guess they are reliable and easy too), and that's zero lash. Advertised cam duration is actual cam duration. Here's the BP cam stats.

INT: 0.318"lift, 196deg @ 0.050"
EXH: 0.338"lift, 202deg @ 0.050"

Those are ACTUAL MEASURED results. On Randy's SoloMiata website http://members.aol.com/solomiata/cams.html He overrates the BP Protege stats, putting them the same value as the Miata BP stats.

ANYways.., there's a guy here in Canada who's going to regrind my (spare)exhaust cam to use as an intake cam for only $175CDN. He's seen 12whp on a mildly modded B6, so for such a cheap price, I figure I can't go wrong.

INT spec: 0.353"lift, 209deg @ 0.050"

A mild cam I know, but for the price, it'll tide me over just fine til I finish balancing and blueprinting my other BP. Look at the increase over the stock intake cam though. It's almost hard to believe I make so much high RPM power with the stock pieces. I'd be MORE than happy to see 7 or 8 whp for $175. (boobs)

 

[Shane5425]

Hey that's what I was thinking of doing later on with time. That would be one killer mod though. A PROTEGE DRIFTER. Like the sound of that. The Rotary would definatley fit in the bay but modding the rear for rear wheel drive is what would be the difficult part.

could u imagin what a tt rotary protege would do .... lol, maybe when i get older and settled down, when get based on a miltary base, i am going to the hobby shop to learn to weld, then gonna take body work classes, then take whatever other car classes they offer, best thing about is that all the classes are free.. .woo hooooo. when i do get a house it will have a 2 stall garage, for my toys with a lift, so, a rotary protege or miata might pop up within the next 4 to 5 years.. who knows

still think a rotary protege would be bad ass

i am pretty sure the mx6(think it is the mx6) tranny bolts right up to the new rotary in the 8, if i remember right, the guys who made the new engine did it on the side in a mx6 , then said hey mazda see what we made it meets us emmisions, then they made the rx8.

 

[Installshield 2]

This isn't meant to be a stupid question, but what is the reason that the FS won't make 200 bhp? People look at the honda 2.0L making much more hp, and besides the obvious differences (VTEC, head design, cams), they wonder why other engines come with so much more power, stock?

The reason I'm asking you all is because I have an engine performance program (simulator) for the computer. I can't get more than 180 fhp from this motor before going into super-tuned headers, intakes, and combustion chambers. Performance headers and optimized cams get me to 180 fhp, which isn't that bad (considering that the cam lift is <.4 and duration is <250 ).

Gen1 touched on this well...but I have to disagree Gen1 on the Honda heads being second to none...They probably are the best 4cylinder heads by far in cheaper economy cars, and sport compacts...As well as some of the upper end cars they make...But comparing any Honda head, to one of the heads on a Ferrari 360's 40valve V8 is entirely different...As well as every BMW DoubleVanos Head, and Porsche's VarioCam Plus systems...Obviously I am being critical, and I don't think you were relating Honda to these types in anyway...so sorry dude...just wanted to clarify that a Honda head isn't anything spectacular on a larger scale...

But related to an FS's head...we won't touch it...Its not that an FS's is overly awful, its decent for an economy car...But Honda engineering is excellent at using newer technology at an affordable price...They started the whole variable valve timing crap on cheaper cars, which at that time was barely used on a lot of expenive cars in the first place...

But anyway...like Gen1 mentioned...You need to look at what this engine was created for...It was dubbed as a larger displacement "torquier" alternative to the FP-DE (the 1.8L used as the high trim engine when the 3rd gen was released)...The stroke was increased to 92mm, which eradicated any upper rpm breathing, but not on its own...The rod ratio, which is a somewhat complicated measurement, relates pistons vertical motion to crank angular rotation...The FS has a very low rod ratio...so in short, our engine's pistons are traveling extremely quickly at a given rpm when compared to a higher rod ratio engine...So the stroke and rod ratio both work together to create an engine that has a very large sinus infection...the stroke makes it difficult to spin efficiently at high rpm, which results in power losses and vibration...and the rod ratio makes it nearly impossible to pull fresh air in, and get burned gas out...

All of that was never the intent by Mazda for this car though...They probably knew it was pretty bad at high rpm power output, and they knew it was good at lowend torque (the benefit of high stroke, and low rod ratios)...and for some reason that is what every American supposedly wants compared to other countries...The ZE makes about the same torque higher up, with much better high rpm breathing...But America gets the torquier engine, because we supposedly want that...and for emissions reasons...

The restrictive exhaust components for U-LEV compliance is slightly to blame too...and also the ECU is very conservative for power...It runs things very rich, probably for safety (it contradicts good emissions though)...

There is hope for the FS...it is just a more tedious project than some other engines...I probably missed some things, so let me know if I did...

 

[Gen1GT]

Rod ratio is critical for high RPM, and as Install knows the BP rod ratio is worse in that regard than the FS, but BPs can still rev. Most Miata guys run 8-9000RPM redlines with stand alones and lighter rods, and one guy has a story of overreving to 13,000 on a missed downshift with no ill effects. But that's due to the BPs bottom end, with the forged internals and all(BP Proteges have a Main Bearing Support Plate that Miatas don't have too). A 10% increase in RPMs creates a 20% increase in stresses.

Other than that, engines with lower rod ratios are more ping resistant, since there's little top dwell, but there's more cylinder wall friction too. Also, low rod-ratio engines promote higher intake and exhaust velocities, but attention needs to be paid to low lift flow. I probably wouldn't be able to run 18 degrees ignition advance with a longer rod either, but that's neither here no there.

 

[akhilleus]

very informative. like always install
But unfortunately alot of this is speculation. We still dont have many good dyno figures or large scale build ups to compare to. I am not sure as to what has been done with older FS-DE probes or 626's in regards to this. Also as i mentioned what is the feasability of having the engine bored out?
I think once twilight has his car dyno'd this saturday we will have a better idea of what the engine can do NA. although there is no doubt that Honda's have some nice engineering, i mean the protege has an old ford engine, how can u compare.

 

[Gen1GT]

very informative. like always install
But unfortunately alot of this is speculation. We still dont have many good dyno figures or large scale build ups to compare to. I am not sure as to what has been done with older FS-DE probes or 626's in regards to this. Also as i mentioned what is the feasability of having the engine bored out?
I think once twilight has his car dyno'd this saturday we will have a better idea of what the engine can do NA. although there is no doubt that Honda's have some nice engineering, i mean the protege has an old ford engine, how can u compare.

I hate it when people say that. Mazda doesn't use Ford engines, it's the other way around. The F-Series engine is 100% Mazda, and dates back to the old RWD 626s from the 70s. Back when Ford has absolutely nothing to do with Mazda.

 

[Shane5425]

I hate it when people say that. Mazda doesn't use Ford engines, it's the other way around. The F-Series engine is 100% Mazda, and dates back to the old RWD 626s from the 70s. Back when Ford has absolutely nothing to do with Mazda.

but ford did take a cast of the block, but added all there stuff on the rest of it , so ford copied mazda for there focus.

 

[Gen1GT]

but ford did take a cast of the block, but added all there stuff on the rest of it , so ford copied mazda for there focus.

Ford uses Mazda's superior engineering, and the only thing Mazda uses of Ford's is their truck crap.

 

[p5sundevil]

and their money...lets not forget....believe me I am the first to point this s*** out also, because my dad works for the jaguar hot weather test facility(can u say free tires/wheels/race gas in AZ) and he always gets that ford makes jag now, even though the relationship is almost exactly like that between ford and mazda. The fund Jaguar but thats about where it ends. Last time ford tried to have a major influence in a jag they got shut down, i dont know if anyone remembers the F-type prototype jag(2dr, all aluminum body/susp 3.0v6(Rmodel supercharged 350hp) and when ford told jag they could only have the funding for it if they(ford) could use the platform and everything else on their future models, since jag didnt want any cheaper cars using their stuff they said no and shut down the entire project. Sucked ass cause I was planning on it as my car.

 

[Gen1GT]

Haha...that's funny. Good though, I like Jag's integrity. Although Jag used Ford Contour/626 Platform for the X-Type. It IS a Mazda platform, so that's not bad I guess. The Jag even uses the KL-DE V6.

I remember the F-Type, I wish they had made it.....

 

[p5sundevil]

yah the Stype and Xtype unfortunately saw ford influence, whcih is why for the first time in yrs jag had problems with one of their productions vehicles, the first yr the Stype came out was not good.

Now that they are restarting their line with the new XJ and XK series being only jag platforms things are pure again. gotta love all aluminum frames coupled with supercharged v8's puting 400 to the wheels.....

 

[Gen1GT]

You can get a good used XJR at an awesome price too....

 

[akhilleus]

yeah but ford helped them with their electrical problems

 

[Shane5425]

funny thing too, alot of the modules in the mazda 6 and 3 say ford motor company on them.

 

[p5sundevil]

a majority of their help with the "electrical problem" was a shitload of extra cash to sink into that area of developement. something jag was lacking hard before being bought a long time ago.

 

[iluvmacs]

Anyway,iluvmacs, have you ever tried running numbers to optimize torque rather than hp?

Actually, no, but that's a great idea, although a bit tougher to do. However, when i optimized for hp, the volumetric efficiency got as high as 96%, which I thought was phenomenal. Torque peak was around 160 ft*lb with 150 at 1500 RPM lower and higher.

iluvmacs - do you have dyno2003?

and dont forget, with our engines you will need a larger cam on the exhaust side because the intake side flows more than the exhaust side and you need to even that up

No, I don't. I probably should get it, although I'm really busy trying to close on a house, get married, and start my first job. I'll get around to it.

Is that flow based on the head, or bolt ons? I would understand if the head had better intake flow. There's a ratio that has to be optimized with that, but I forgot what it's called.

But anyway...like Gen1 mentioned...You need to look at what this engine was created for...It was dubbed as a larger displacement "torquier" alternative to the FP-DE (the 1.8L used as the high trim engine when the 3rd gen was released)...The stroke was increased to 92mm, which eradicated any upper rpm breathing, but not on its own...The rod ratio, which is a somewhat complicated measurement, relates pistons vertical motion to crank angular rotation...The FS has a very low rod ratio...so in short, our engine's pistons are traveling extremely quickly at a given rpm when compared to a higher rod ratio engine...So the stroke and rod ratio both work together to create an engine that has a very large sinus infection...the stroke makes it difficult to spin efficiently at high rpm, which results in power losses and vibration...and the rod ratio makes it nearly impossible to pull fresh air in, and get burned gas out...

The restrictive exhaust components for U-LEV compliance is slightly to blame too...and also the ECU is very conservative for power...It runs things very rich, probably for safety (it contradicts good emissions though)...

I understand about the rod ratio. It helps that most honda engines (minus the CR-V, some accords, etc with the 2.4) are relatively square. They also have a tall block. In a perfect world I'd get a miata crank and some longer rods to keep or increase the stock compression ratio. .2L of displacement doesn't seem like much when you consider the RPM benefits. Is the FS block any taller? I mean, after destroking, could the FS have a better rod ratio than the BP?

Most cars seem to run extremely rich, starting at the torque peak. That sucks because 70-75 mph is right in the torque peak and it sucks down gas on the highway at that speed. My other car, stock, runs 11:1 A/F past 3000 RPM. It's torque peak though is at 1800-3200 RPM.

Thanks for the replies. I know the FS isn't a great engine for modding, but if you consider that if you spent the same money on bolt-ons or top-end (valvetrain) parts as you did with a different engine, you'd get less output, but the car is already a blast to drive, and any improvement would just make it more fun. I'd be satisfied with 130 whp, knowing how many tickets I'm going to get when the car is stock....

Here's my plan for 130+ whp:

CAI (no hp increase, but sounds a shitload better, and cleans up the engine bay)
header
2.25" cat-back exhaust (custom, because chrome is for douches)
cams (lift has yet to be decided, based on vacuum and head flow)
intake (221 dur, -4BTDC, 45ABDC)
exhaust (236 dur, 50 BBDC, 6ATDC)

I don't like the overlap issue, but run that through DD and let me know if you can come up with something better.

Oh, and an ECU rePROM

 

[MSPinVA]

funny thing too, alot of the modules in the mazda 6 and 3 say ford motor company on them.

That's because the block and internals are Ford, the heads-up are Mazda. The 2.3 liter Duratec seems like a FANTASTIC motor to build NA. You guys should consider it as a project sometime

I know this is a little off topic, but you NA guys seem to know a shitload more than I ever would about our motors, so here goes: What would a longer duration intake cam and ported valves do for performance on a boosted car? Wouldn't it just multiply the gains from an NA application?

 

[Mike R]

That's because the block and internals are Ford, the heads-up are Mazda. The 2.3 liter Duratec seems like a FANTASTIC motor to build NA. You guys should consider it as a project sometime

I know this is a little off topic, but you NA guys seem to know a shitload more than I ever would about our motors, so here goes: What would a longer duration intake cam and ported valves do for performance on a boosted car? Wouldn't it just multiply the gains from an NA application?

Yes, the duratec is, it already has been putting out 250+ HP N/A for a couple years. A little more duration would be OK, but with turbo you don't want too much duration because of overlap. Ported Valves? Do you mean porting the head? The intake and exhaust ports?

 

[MSPinVA]

isnt there a procedure to widen the valves more, maybe not porting is the word.... micing maybe? Anyway, I figured porting and polishing the ports in the head would be beneficial. Also, what is the new 2.0L motor? Is it a Duratec too or the FS engine?