2008 WRX vs. 2007 MS3 by Inside Line Video

[Antonio DiMarco]

Yes I really believe that...

C'mon, do you really believe that?



A slight edge?(screwy)

I've driven many miles over my 20 years behind the wheel in the NE and I can tell you that a well-balanced front wheel drive car with excellent tires and an experience driver can perform as well as an AWD car. In fact I'll wager that tires are the single most important part of ANY car.

My 95 Protege crushed my wifes 98 Civic in the snow. At the time we lived in a condo and I was always able to get out of my space while her pitiful Honda just spun it's poor tires.

I wince when I hear people say that tires don't make a difference. That type of shortsightedness is the difference between avoiding an accident and getting killed.

Yes AWD offers a SLIGHT edge. OK maybe more of an edge for those of us who can't drive well.

 

[Rotary_Powered]

Snow tires + Tire Chains FTW!

(AWD is better in snow but other drive trains equipped with the right rubber can be very competent)

 

[boosted3]

You win...

This is absolutely comical.

 

[Capt Crunch]

It's funny how bad the WRX fanbois are sometimes. My 02 WRX and the 07 WRX I drove both sucked in comparison to the MS3. They love to latch on to their AWD performance but a stock WRX understeers just as badly as the MS3. It has worse suspension, worse wheels and tires, worse motor and tranny... just goes on and on.

STI owners shouldn't worry though, that thing is still a beast. I would know since I swapped my car to be an STI: motor, tranny, and everything. Wish I didn't have to give it up, but the MS3 is a much more practical (and comfortable!) car.

 

[CHICO2003]

...

I think the whole AWD craze is overrated anyway. A good pair of snows coupled with the Mazda traction control should do 90% as well as the Sub AWD. All I see AWD doing is making bad drivers worse by instilling a false sense of security. I live in MA and have had both AWD/4WD (Honda Pilot, Nissan Patherfinder) and front wheel drive (6 Mazdas) and with a good set of snow tires (and judicious use of throttle) the Mazdas handled snow without any issue. I actuallu saw more difference with tires. The Pilots came from the factory with horrible Goodyear Integritys which were downright dangerous in wet and snow...

4 years ago I was in the market for a new car. I narrowed my choices down to a WRX and the MSP. We get a pretty good amount of snow here in CT so the awd was a nice feature. In the end, I choose the MSP. Do I have any regrets? Not really... but the logic described above (which factored into my decision) has some serious flaws.

Because price was the main reason I choose the MSP, I felt it would be a bit contradictory to spend $800+ on snow tires that would fit my 17" stock rims. Because of a bad experience I had at a shop (they really F'ed my rims up good putting a new set of tires on) I was leary about going that route. So I ended up buying a set of 15" steel wheels and matching snow tires. Wheels + tires + balancing + stems = $500 or so. Not bad since I was planning on keeping them at least a few years. Even still, suddenly the wrx was no longer $2500 more... but instead, $2000. Oh well...

So the 1st winter hits and it's time to change the tires. No big deal... I've changed a tire before. Jack up the car... take off the lugs and... hmm... that's odd! The damn tire won't come off! wtf? Long story short, the MSP wheels are a b**** to get off. I can't tell you how aggrivating it was...After 2 winters of this crap... I finally broke down and now bring it to the local tire shop. They told me my wheels were the hardest they've ever had to get off. Said he needed to swing as hard as he could with a sledge hammer (from inside mind you) just to get them off. While this service isn't expensive, it's not free either. Couple that with the fact that there's always a long wait and...

Last but not least... One of the things that attracted me to the MSP was its handling. With the stock potenzas, it lived up to the praise. With the 15" snow/donut tires... it handled like a subcompact. For 4-5 months of the year... I'm driving around on these pos tires. Since you never know when snow might strike, it's necessary to put them on at the beginning of december and keep them on until mid April. Meanwhile, within those 4-5 months... there's probably only a handful of days in which you're actually driving on snow.

In looking back, between the added cost... added aggrivation and inconvenience and, oh yeah, virtual elimination of why I bought the car in the first place for more than a 1/3 of the year... I feel I would have been better served spending the extra $2k and getting the WRX. That generation's handling was on par with the MSP (depsite being outfitted with mud&snow tires) and it's performance figures were far superior. To think, my 'tire maintenance' would be reserved to simple tire rotations (which my oil change place does for me everytime I go)... that's nothing! No swapping tires.... no bad handling during the winter months...

For all those reasons, I generally urge people to think twice before they succumb to the "just put snow tires on your fwd car and it'll handle as well as an awd car in the winter" argument. It sounds good in theory... but in reality, not so much.

 

[CHICO2003]

It's funny how bad the WRX fanbois are sometimes. My 02 WRX and the 07 WRX I drove both sucked in comparison to the MS3. They love to latch on to their AWD performance but a stock WRX understeers just as badly as the MS3. It has worse suspension, worse wheels and tires, worse motor and tranny... just goes on and on...

A lot of the guys I know with WRXs (who might be considered 'fanbois') like the fact that you can easily/cheaply/reliably get 350+ hp out of those things. Doing so in an MSP would require pretty much a complete rebuild of the car. The MS3? It can probably handle it but the market isn't nearly the same. Even still, because it's fwd, there's a limit to how much power you can put down. An awd car on the other hand... go to town!

I know you said 'stock' but the reality is... many (if not most) wrx owners are far from it. Though I'm mainly the type that prefers to keep my car (performance wise) relatively stock, I can understand the appeal of knowing you can mod the s*** out of your car without much worry.

 

[CHICO2003]

Getting back on topic here...

Are the results of this Edmunds comparrison all that surprising to anyone? From a looks standpoint... while this 5 door wrx isn't my cup of tea (and certainly isn't nearly as attractive as the MS3) it's definitely better looking than the wagon it replaces. (which isn't saying much really)

I thought Edmunds take on the interior was a bit unfair. Sure, the MS3 has far better seats but (with the exception of the odd placement of the radio) I kind of like the interior of the new WRX. Gone are the pea soup green backlit gauges... the quality seems to be top-notch. At least you don't have to tear apart your dash in order to put in an (what I now feel is a must) in-dash nav system.

Personally... I think Subaru was pretty smart with the way they choose tho outfit both WRXs inside and out. Realizing that the 'tuner crowd' is going to modify their cars anyway (regardless of how they come from the factory) they clearly decided to cater to the older, more 'mature' crowd. The types of people who don't mind an understated look (the sedan sort of looks like the new 3 series) and prefer a softer ride. Subaru is hoping these cars will attract those types of people. The types that HAVE been buying WRXs all these years... Subaru is hoping they'll still buy them and (as they've been doing) put their own stamp on the car. Subaru has an optional mesh grille that dramatically improves the front end of the car. Little changes like that coupled with stiffer springs, better wheels & tires... etc In the end, subaru hopes, they'll have the best of both worlds. Only time will tell.

 

[Antonio DiMarco]

I can see why you maybe sour on snows but...

4 years ago I was in the market for a new car. I narrowed my choices down to a WRX and the MSP. We get a pretty good amount of snow here in CT so the awd was a nice feature. In the end, I choose the MSP. Do I have any regrets? Not really... but the logic described above (which factored into my decision) has some serious flaws.

Because price was the main reason I choose the MSP, I felt it would be a bit contradictory to spend $800+ on snow tires that would fit my 17" stock rims. Because of a bad experience I had at a shop (they really F'ed my rims up good putting a new set of tires on) I was leary about going that route. So I ended up buying a set of 15" steel wheels and matching snow tires. Wheels + tires + balancing + stems = $500 or so. Not bad since I was planning on keeping them at least a few years. Even still, suddenly the wrx was no longer $2500 more... but instead, $2000. Oh well...

So the 1st winter hits and it's time to change the tires. No big deal... I've changed a tire before. Jack up the car... take off the lugs and... hmm... that's odd! The damn tire won't come off! wtf? Long story short, the MSP wheels are a b**** to get off. I can't tell you how aggrivating it was...After 2 winters of this crap... I finally broke down and now bring it to the local tire shop. They told me my wheels were the hardest they've ever had to get off. Said he needed to swing as hard as he could with a sledge hammer (from inside mind you) just to get them off. While this service isn't expensive, it's not free either. Couple that with the fact that there's always a long wait and...

Last but not least... One of the things that attracted me to the MSP was its handling. With the stock potenzas, it lived up to the praise. With the 15" snow/donut tires... it handled like a subcompact. For 4-5 months of the year... I'm driving around on these pos tires. Since you never know when snow might strike, it's necessary to put them on at the beginning of december and keep them on until mid April. Meanwhile, within those 4-5 months... there's probably only a handful of days in which you're actually driving on snow.

In looking back, between the added cost... added aggrivation and inconvenience and, oh yeah, virtual elimination of why I bought the car in the first place for more than a 1/3 of the year... I feel I would have been better served spending the extra $2k and getting the WRX. That generation's handling was on par with the MSP (depsite being outfitted with mud&snow tires) and it's performance figures were far superior. To think, my 'tire maintenance' would be reserved to simple tire rotations (which my oil change place does for me everytime I go)... that's nothing! No swapping tires.... no bad handling during the winter months...

For all those reasons, I generally urge people to think twice before they succumb to the "just put snow tires on your fwd car and it'll handle as well as an awd car in the winter" argument. It sounds good in theory... but in reality, not so much.

It sounds like your basing your experience on one bad experience. $2000 is still a huge difference in price. I've owned 6 Mazdas including a 2001 Protege ES and I used Winter steelies and snows, purchased from the Tire Rack, on it with no issues. My wife's 5 uses snows since she got stuck in our driveway 2 winters ago. Same deal 16-inchers on steelies, no problems. It depends on your experience. Saying that a Subaru with All-Seasons would have solved your problem is a bit over simplisitic in my opinion . Then again you seem like a pretty even-headed guy (based on other posts of yours) so I won't argue your experience.

My greatest gripe is that people often think technology will save their asses without any responsibility or thinking on their end. Like Stability control and anti-locks, AWD is a tool that can improve traction, but without addressing the basics (i.e. well-balanced chassis and good tires) your pretty-much guaranteed poor traction/performance.

Think about it, up until recently (the last 10-15 years), many european cars did without AWD. Volvo was mainly rear wheel drive while Saab was front. Those European cars drove through pretty bad weather and all they did was change over to winter tires. AWD came around because it was a fad. Subaru made it popular and every other brand followed.

I can accept the off-the-line advantages that AWD may have in wet and snowy weather, but a well-balanced front or rear wheel drive car with snows and judicious used of throttle and clutch can get off the line in such conditions just as well, albeit a little slower.

 

[CHICO2003]

Part of me feels that it would have been worth the extra $2k to have the best of both worlds. The 2 cars you brought up (the P5 & the 6) aren't as sporty as the MSP so the disparity between the handling my summer tires and your all-season tires have with our respective snows, is far greater.

 

[funkyman]

Ms3

The EVO X and the STI 2008 are darn sight ugly compared with the MS3.They don`t really have that much of an edge on dry tarmac either.With some fine tuning and 300hp under the hood,disabled 1st and 2nd gear restrictions ,they can be delt with anywhere,even around the track as long as its dry and you put 245`s all around with light alloy racing wheels weighing 20lbs.I run 235`s at the moment and the grip is phenomenal with these slicks check it.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=4
http://www.tirerack.com/tire-12/Kumho/Ecsta+SPT.shtml

 

[CHICO2003]

Car looks awesome! Best looking MS3 I've ever seen. (wheels make or break) I'm holding out judgement on the STi until I actually see one. With the right treatment, it might look good. The EVO X... with the exception of the rear lights and (of course) ridiculous spoiler, I think they hit a home run with the car's looks. Very aggressive/mean looking. And it's a sedan... so, compared with the STi, it has an inherent edge imo.

As far as performance goes... not sure I agree with your logic. Everything you said was purely speculative since we don't have the #s on either the Evo or Sti yet. In addition, there's more to a car's performance than straight line speeds. I'd be surprised if these cars pull anything short of a .92g. But yeah... if your point is you can get similar performance with a few modiciatons then I'd agree. In the end, however, it's no different than when the SRT-4 was running with the Stis and Evos. Sure... it could keep up but... which would you rather have?

 

[Haltech]

The EVO X and the STI 2008 are darn sight ugly compared with the MS3.They don`t really have that much of an edge on dry tarmac either.With some fine tuning and 300hp under the hood,disabled 1st and 2nd gear restrictions ,they can be delt with anywhere,even around the track as long as its dry and you put 245`s all around with light alloy racing wheels weighing 20lbs.I run 235`s at the moment and the grip is phenomenal with these slicks check it.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=4
http://www.tirerack.com/tire-12/Kumho/Ecsta+SPT.shtml

Not exactly what i call slicks. I ran Kuhmos a couple of times on my truck. Very sticky, terrible on wear. Theres always a tradeoff somewhere. I went to the Toyo Proxies and havent looked back. Just as sticky as Kuhmos but with better wear.

We DO need some slick options for this car though. At least some Drag Radials to start off with.

 

[CTGrey02]

A slight edge?(screwy)

Considering that the cars were dead even and the rex was being out accelerated by the end of the 1/4 mile, I'd reckon so. I've never had problems launching my Mustang against Evo's and STi's at the track, I don't know why I'd be concerned about a FWD when I can just reel em in the same way if needed. AWD's only advantage seems to be winter and wet traction. Last I checked, the strip is usually closed in the rain.

 

[funkyman]

I prefer softer,comfortable tires than having longer wear .Good performance for a good price.The car can handle 245`s in front with an 8" rim i think no problem.but its going to get heavy.

 

[Haltech]

I prefer softer,comfortable tires than having longer wear .Good performance for a good price.The car can handle 245`s in front with an 8" rim i think no problem.but its going to get heavy.

Yea, 245s would look real nice but those wheels are going to be extremely heavy unless youre prepared to spend $2000+ for new wheels. I dont think its worth the price personally. I sent off a email to Nitto, perhaps they will bring something to the market for us.

 

[ragindark]

Hey funkyman, what % tint do you have on your car and what brand is it? Also, how many inches of tint do your have at the top of your windshield?

Thanks,
T

 

[boosted3]

Considering that the cars were dead even and the rex was being out accelerated by the end of the 1/4 mile, I'd reckon so. I've never had problems launching my Mustang against Evo's and STi's at the track, I don't know why I'd be concerned about a FWD when I can just reel em in the same way if needed. AWD's only advantage seems to be winter and wet traction. Last I checked, the strip is usually closed in the rain.

Please, if you're going to quote me do so in context.
I was replying to this:

Now from a performance off-the-line standpoint AWD may have a slight edge

I am fully aware that the cars were dead even.. I am fully aware that we can "reel 'em in"..
I am addressing the idea that AWD offers only a slight edge from an off-the-line standpoint. It's simply not true. AWD offers a huge OTL advantage.

If you don't believe me, race a WRX to 60ft, 200ft or 1/8 mile..
It's the entire reason the speed3 is playing catch-up the whole 1/4.

Good on you regarding your Mustang. Pssst! In case you didn't notice, it's a rear wheel drive vehicle.


I own a Speed3 and not a WRX. I don't even like the WRX but, the inherent advantage of AWD cannot be denied.

 

[boosted3]

have you actually ever been in a real fast car before?

No, apparently you're the only one who has been in a real fast car. heh.

I dunno what you consider fast, but our '68 Camero silver state car ran a 10.91(with passenger).. The '69 boosted Datsun 240(L28) ran a 12.13 and the best I ever got in the '94 RX-7 was a 12.86.

 

[Haltech]

No, apparently you're the only one who has been in a real fast car. heh.

I dunno what you consider fast, but our '68 Camero silver state car ran a 10.91(with passenger).. The '69 boosted Datsun 240(L28) ran a 12.13 and the best I ever got in the '94 RX-7 was a 12.86.

The point im trying to make is, if you have been in real fast cars, you learn how to drive them fast. You should have mastered the MS3 by now, especially launching it. Im sorry youre scared of M3s, 335is and the AWD guys.. Im not and my car isnt a slouch. What ive been gathering is a lot of people have respect for the MS3 and are beginning to recognize them. They are only going to get faster and dont be surprised to see STis and EVOs getting ***** by them in the future.

 

[Rotary_Powered]

Speaking of which the new 335i twin turbo 300hp is awesome! and FAST. How does the MS3 stack up from a roll? I know those things do 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. But how do you guys do once your moving.

Trap speeds are 100mph vs 105mph. (edmunds)