2.3 Miller Cycle -- Lysholm oil seal failure

Miller Time

Member
:
2000 Millenia S, Twilight Mica Blue
Hey folks -- great to be here.

A question:

I recently ran across a reliability issue flagged on msn autos that states the supercharger on the Miller Cycle engine can suffer from premature oil seal wear. They also state that the estimated cost of replacement seals is $4000.

Has anyone out there had experience with this issue? I'm about to buy my first Millenia (2000 model year) and sure don't like the sound of this.

Two local Mazda dealers confirm they have heard of it, but insist it's extremely rare. One said don't even bother attempting to repair a Lysholm compressor once you've got seal problems, but rather get a rebuilt unit or go to the aftermarket.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
 
Miller Time said:
Hey folks -- great to be here.

A question:

I recently ran across a reliability issue flagged on msn autos that states the supercharger on the Miller Cycle engine can suffer from premature oil seal wear. They also state that the estimated cost of replacement seals is $4000.

Has anyone out there had experience with this issue? I'm about to buy my first Millenia (2000 model year) and sure don't like the sound of this.

Two local Mazda dealers confirm they have heard of it, but insist it's extremely rare. One said don't even bother attempting to repair a Lysholm compressor once you've got seal problems, but rather get a rebuilt unit or go to the aftermarket.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

I got a few for you -

The lysholm supercharger is the most efficient design you can have for about anything you want. the miller cycle engine (im a HUGE fan) uses less gas than a typical and makes more power. The supercahrgers can be purchased used for cheaper (if your worried about it) - butI woudnt worry too much about it - its not common enough to care about. Get one - drive it and have fun!
 
Horse said:
I got a few for you -

...its not common enough to care about. Get one - drive it and have fun!

Excellent! Thanks for the reassurance. I'm a (new) fan of this engine and love the idea of getting that much power out of basically the same displacement as my '88 626.

This motor hauls the car up to a good rate of knots in fairly short order, despite the fact that the Millenia quite the hefty beast.

And all accomplished with near-silent, seamless power.

Cheers,

MT
 
Those engines are crazy... They always interested me. I've done a ton of research on the Mazda K-Series motors including the 2.3L I actually use to have a website that had nothing but Mazda K-Series engine info. :-D

The FPR off those engines work well for increasing flow on Many other Mazda engines including some of the B-series (some Spec Miata racers use them to cheat). You can also use the bigger injectors for K-series motors.
 
HorsepowerFreak said:
Those engines are crazy... They always interested me. I've done a ton of research on the Mazda K-Series motors including the 2.3L I actually use to have a website that had nothing but Mazda K-Series engine info. :-D

The FPR off those engines work well for increasing flow on Many other Mazda engines including some of the B-series (some Spec Miata racers use them to cheat). You can also use the bigger injectors for K-series motors.

Cool. I've owned the car for exactly six hours now and I'm smitten, mostly because of that gem of an engine with the funky little blower and dual intercoolers on top. Any recommendations on further reading and research?
 
Enjoy your car! It's really a nice car, I've seen a Millenia this summer with HID lights and it looks smoking hot. Polish the paint and put HID's and everyone will look at your car.
 
Mikey444 said:
Enjoy your car! It's really a nice car, I've seen a Millenia this summer with HID lights and it looks smoking hot. Polish the paint and put HID's and everyone will look at your car.

Thanks for the kind words. HID was my first thought this weekend as I was trying to navigate some twisties at speed in the pouring rain north of the city. Those stock headlights suck!

I do like the little projector driving lights down in the bumper but of course they go off when you use your brights. At least I think they're projectors -- I don't know much about lighting at this stage. When you look closely at them when they're off the lenses look a bit like clear marbles and you can't see a bulb. Is that HID, projectors, xenon, some kind of OEM wannabe, all of the above? Perhaps I should mosey over to the DIY thread and do some reading...

MT
 
There's not a whole lot you can do to those. I was looking into building an intercooler of some sort for those at one point.

I don't think two small IC's can be all that great.
 
Might I also add.... Nice big wheels look amazing on those cars. :)
 
Does anyone know any Part numbers for :
seals to lysholm supercharger ?
bearings ?
I just bought a 94 Eunos 800M ( Millenia ) Miller Cycle and it's burning oil, smoking & spraying a little oil from supercharger pulley onto radiator hose etc..
It could be burning oil from valve stem seals ( which I doubt) - that will be determined when I inspect the plugs to see if it's consistent throughout - or whetehr a particular cylinder is fouled more than others...
I KNOW the parts ARE available - as PSE offer a remanufacturing package.
I have no bearing noise - all works well, bar the slight oil leak.

ANY tips/pointers appreciated.
 
--------

Ah, memories. It's been four plus years with my 2000 milly since I wrote those gushing words of praise at the top of this post...and, what's that phrase...Time heals all wounds? Weeelll - time can create some doozies too.

The issue I was originally concerned about has, alas, come to pass. I am about to install my...third...THIRD supercharger in this car due to bad seals. I admit, two were bad before they went into the car. Howzzat?! Forge on, dear reader!...



1st one lasted approx 100,000 km then I started noticing the fatal telltale blue smoke at startup. Mazda confirmed the problem and...as my car was just outside warranty, offered to fix it for $7000. Yup...no typos there. $5000 for a new supercharger...and $2000 labour. They pointed out that I should be grateful becuase the compressor price had just been reduced from $7000...

It was then I really started looking into this issue and discovered PSE in the US -- so far as I know, were the only folks doing a proper rebuild of this blower. They know all about the fragile seals and go to some trouble to get them out (I believe they are both epoxied and heat shrunk into place) and it's quite difficult for the average joe to rebuild this unit. PSE uses a different material and can offer a two year unlimited mileage warranty as a result. [Edit: Oops! just looked at the paperwork on my PSE rebuild. That's two years period. From the ship date. No mention of mileage...]

$2000 still seemed rather steep (hindsight....sob) so I decided instead to go elsewhere and rolled the dice on ebay...twice. First unit cost me $1000 and was supposed to be a factory rebuild of the nose drive and otherwise flawless. It certainly looked good in the pics and in person. Just like this...

DSC07522.jpg


and this...

bearingcaps1.jpg


8 hours of installation effort later, with a buddy showing me how to do it, it was in the car...and proved to be bad, sucking as much or more oil than my original. The upstanding gent who sold it to me professed great consternation and also refused to refund any money. Hard lesson No. 1.

Next one I picked up was from a car that was being parted out. A friend had great luck with a used unit, so I decided to chance it. Certainly less than the first one! However this one was also bad. At least I was out "just" $200. Did the install myself part time over three days. Learned a lot about my motor, anyway...

So...Have I learned my lesson? Hopefully. My $2400 PSE unit should arrive this week. Turning in the core will get me $300 back I believe. Then I will tear the top of the motor down again and do this fiddly job one more time...

Now...none of this really answered any of your questions,but I wanted to set the stage as someone who has had some experience in this area...sadly.

OK, so you think you might be sucking oil into your motor through the blower? Sure fire way to find out quick is to take off the plastic Miller Cycle cover from the engine and open the inspection hatch on the top of the intake plumbing. Four or five bolts if I recall. Once open you will be able to see right down into the compressor housing. If the lobes are wet and/or there is oil pooling in there anywhere...you have bad compressor seals. Sort of like this...

schatch_cropped.jpg


and this...

oil1.jpg


Easy as that. If you want to be double sure, pull your front intercooler and tip it up. If oil runs out...you're a winnah! as they say. Only, this horse race definitely ain't no fun.

Sort of like this...

coolerdrip.jpg


and this...

coolerpipe.jpg


As for noise, all three compressors I had that went bad ran completely quietly, so lack of bearing noise isn't a reliable indicator. What I have heard of happening on badly leaking units is clatter from the lobes as they try (and fail) to compress the oil that they are sucking through the bearings. The sound is the bearings being forcibly deflected I guess. Now THAT will make some noise...

Now for your other questions.

Part nos? None I could find. I talked to PSE in the summer about getting a kit and they said they only do complete rebuilds and do not sell parts. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know some very talented, mechanically inclinded folks who have tried to disassemble this compressor. It's a huge PITA owing to the way the seals and bearings are installed. One guy had to weld bolts onto the backing plates just to pull them. I belive they both got them apart but neither managed to find the parts to rebuild them. I did hear of one guy on one of the Mazda sites who got a little further, but I can't remember who or where. Maybe google Lysholm rebuild and you will get lucky.

As for the procedure itself, I belive the manual calls for the removal of the intake manifolds front and back. Actually you can get away without doing that. If you remove the fuel rails you can just squeak the compressor out between them. Careful, though, it's awkward as all get out and if you don't pull straight up you will bend a compressor stud. In this shot below the front manifold is removed because of leaking valve cover gaskets (info to come). Also take note of that delicate-looking wire draped over the compressor. That's the knock sensor harness, which runs under the compressor. Be careful not to yank on that.

scheadcovergasket4.jpg


Other things to consider.

Get replacement copper washers for the high pressure fuel rails before tackling the job. There are three or four required when replacing the fuel system. Don't risk a fire due to leaks from reused washers.

It's also not a bad time to replace your plugs as they will probably be fouled and you have so much off the top of the motor it's much easier to find them.

Oh, and label your vacuum lines VERY carefully! Also be wary not to install any check valves backwards or you will be kicking yourself. They have faint embossed arrows indicating direction of vacuum flow.

It's also a great opportunity to inspect all your vacuum lines for cracks or wear. The vacuum Ts also should be inspected. I repaced a couple of mine and a few feet of line. (There is, I believe, about 20 feet of vacuum line under there.) It gets cooked by the heat as much of itis sandwiched between the motor and other plumbing.

Lotsa plumbing!

scheadcovergasket3.jpg


Other items to label carefully are the wiring harnesses on the solenoids fastened to the rear valve covers.

You will probably be able to reuse the metal gaskets above and below the compressor if this is the first time it has been pulled. As I'm on number three, I will probably opt for new ones.

It's also possible your valve cover gaskets may be leaking. Check for oil on the plug boots when you pull the coil packs. Now's the perfect time to pull those covers if you have leaks. I did. A lot like this...

wetcoilpack1.jpg



which led to this...

scheadcovergasket5.jpg


Check the condition of your serpentine belt. Another item worth replacing at this point since you are this far into it.

You will also need to get a couple or five cans of brake cleaner to flush the oil out of your intercooler plumbing. Spray in one side, slosh around the air exchangers until they run clear. Also, dispose of the stuff properly -- not down the sewers!

Finally, get a torque wrench and pay attention to the bolt patterns for the induction plumbing when buttoning everything back up.

Now, what is unusual in your case (at least to me) is oil being sprayed externally. All my bad units leaked everything into the motor, nothing on the outside or getting on belts. Don't know what to tell you about that.

I hope some of this has been helpful. If I think of any other tips I will let you know.
 
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Wow... way to go man!!

Hey, I've got a 2000 milly as well and live in toronto, might of seen you around, i keep an eye out for other milly's as they are kinda rare. I live in the bathurst and bloor area, two tone balck/silver 2000 S.

Anyway, I love the car to death, I don't know why, but I've got 175K on it , bought it used last year with 150k. I'd like to keep her for another 100k if possible, so I am anticipating having to do some major repairs.

I've already had a mechanic replace timing belt/water pump/tensioner, and some front end suspension stuff. I've also had some vacuum issues over the summer that I was able to diagnose and fix myself, had to replace a T and my vent and vacuum solenoids.

I could never replace the supercharger or anything of that magnitude.

It's hard finding a good milly mech, are your services for hire? Could we meet casually and maybe you could tell me what you think of mine? as I have no basis as to what the car should feel like.

Any updates on how your car is?

All the best and happy holidays dude...

Peter
 
hey sweet pics, can you by chance tell me what the camshaft codes are?

The intake one is probably something like KJXX 431..

thanks a lot!~
 
Many thanks for the detailed post with plenty of close-up pics.

I'm just finishing a rebuild of my 2002 Millenia S (89K miles) which has all the symptoms of leaking supercharger bearings. To confirm what you already know, my supercharger is almost silent and the boost pressure is perfect, so neither a lack of noise nor a lack of boost is a reliable symptom of bearing seal problems.
 
Hey guys - thanks for all the kind words. Sorry for not checking in more frequently.

Short story is I installed the PSE charger and....it went bad on me too....I know, I know - how could anyone possibly have that much bad luck. Don't know but I seem to have had it.

Talked to PSE who where highly sceptical, insisting I didn't install it correctly. Can't really blame them although by now I could rebuild that top end in my sleep. Anyway, I got so fed up with the car and all the wasted time (father of a young kid, wife who was getting more and more impatient with an unreliable family driver) that I tossed it on Craigslist for a grand. Practically dared someone to buy it, listing the entire history pretty much as I've detailed above.

Some enterprising young lad took me up on the offer and showed up with the cash, started it up and departed in a cloud of blue smoke. He had great plans to fix all the problems, then drop in a five speed to boot. That was the summer of 09....

Too bad he didn't keep in touch as I'd love to know how he made out.

Anyway - I miss like heck the way that car rode, sounded, and looked. But I do not miss the permanent twitch that had developed in my left eyelid every time I drove the car or lifted the hood.

Repaced it with a 2007 Mazda 3 GT. Was really missing a five speed and the car handles like a go cart. Great for commuting. No class at all, tho and I don't get the second glance (or a third, or fourth, or fifth) that my beautiful Midnight Blue Mica Milly got.

Ah, well. Good luck to the rest of you folks with them. They always catch my eye when I see them on the road. Still a few around too.

Miller Time.....out
 
I am looking at buying at 2001 Millenia with 116k miles on it. I can tell you that there's no way I'll be doing any mechanic work on it like you have. I guess my question would be...is this failure on these cars a possibility or is it always an inevitability? Anything you would look for on this one that before purchasing?

Thanks
 
Well, my '02 Millenia S is about to pass the 500 miles mark since the complete rebuild -- so far so good. I'll do a post-rebuild oil and filter change this weekend and in a week or two take her to the smog mechanic to make sure she's burning as clean as she smells.

This forum and a couple others taught me a ton about the KJ engine, and while it took a LONG time and a LOT of money, I had fun and learned a lot in the process. I would recommend it to anyone who has decent mechanical skills. Good practices make the job not too bad at all, and I'll try to post a detailed description of all I did and learned (with lots of pictures) soon.

I was definitely getting blow-by around the pistons, which was carrying oil through the PCV system into the supercharger. My Milly's cylinders were unevenly worn and the rings were bad. I suspect the oil had not been changed at proper intervals or an inferior grade oil had been used. But she also had signs of bad oil seals in the supercharger, which from what I've read is likely to be caused by -- you guessed it -- not changing the oil regularly or not using the right grade oil.

I was going to try taking the supercharger apart and cleaning out all the oil passages and seal grooves as detailed in another forum, but then I caught a lucky break at a Pick-and-Pull yard: I found what appears to be a very recently rebuilt supercharger in a vehicle that had clear signs of sucking oil in through the PCVs rather than through the supercharger bearings. I think somebody mis-diagnosed the source of their problem and when a very expensive supercharger rebuild did not fix the problem, they junked the car -- it hadn't been hit, so must have been junked for mechanical reasons.

With any luck that will be all the major mechanical work she'll need for the next few years.

I still have a permanent smile on my face driving this sweet machine!
 
Hi I bought a 1999 milly 2.3 miller cycle engine, running bad, smoking bad, but real nice car,i paid NZ$1600 for it I took it into my shed and 2days and NZ$15 later runs nice and no smoke It will be interesting to see how long it lasts, down here I couldn't find any seals for the compressor and didn't want to spend US$4000 to get them from the US.
 
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