Official 'Smoking Turbo' response from Mazda

[Mikey95hd]

My MS3 has got 37,800, and the oil was changed at 37,026, and at idle today at a stop light she was smoking big time. Dealer said they are suppose to have a fix in March, well more then half the months over and nothing. They have put 5w-40 Mobile 1 in for free, now that is two oil changes. My mechanic at the dealership, showed me the problem, un-screw the oil cap but don't take it off completely, start the car and remove it and see all the pressure these engines are making just by lifting the cap off. So it is the PCV system at fault, and causing the Turbo to have no where to disperse the oil. I've also heard that the PCV fix doesn't fix the problem. Why don't the newer models have this problem? Why don't they put the same system in our older cars?

 

[bova80]

ha if you life the oil cap off while the engine is running be ready to clean up a big mess from the oil that flings off the timing chain.

 

[robin2660]

My mechanic at the dealership, showed me the problem, un-screw the oil cap but don't take it off completely, start the car and remove it and see all the pressure these engines are making just by lifting the cap off.

What do you mean? How does taking the oil filler cap off demonstrate the faulty PCV system? What is it you see?

Why don't the newer models have this problem? Why don't they put the same system in our older cars?

I don't know that the newer models don't have the problem. Most of them are too new to know. It's the same engine and turbo after all. All that's different (to my knowledge) is the EMS.

 

[robin2660]

How many people are running 5W (or 0W)-20 and have smoking turbos? I really wonder if thinner oil is flowing better and not pushing past the seals. Mine is 33K and stock, running 5W-20, and no smoke, ever. I guess some genius is gonna suggest I am just lucky.

No one is seriously considering this concept. To further elaborate, it could be, in my mind, possible that thicker oil is only a temporary bandaid that's works by clogging the seals. The real problem is that the thicker oil is not returning quickly enough and thus backing up, building up pressure, and seeping past the seals.

It's no mystery that lighter oil flows better and results in less oil pressure, especially if there's a pressure bottleneck.

How about some intellectual discourse on this concept?

 

[funkytuqe]

My MS6 is running 5W-20 and smoking like a chimney

 

[tunersteve]

How many people are running 5W (or 0W)-20 and have smoking turbos? I really wonder if thinner oil is flowing better and not pushing past the seals. Mine is 33K and stock, running 5W-20, and no smoke, ever. I guess some genius is gonna suggest I am just lucky.

No one is seriously considering this concept. To further elaborate, it could be, in my mind, possible that thicker oil is only a temporary bandaid that's works by clogging the seals. The real problem is that the thicker oil is not returning quickly enough and thus backing up, building up pressure, and seeping past the seals.

It's no mystery that lighter oil flows better and results in less oil pressure, especially if there's a pressure bottleneck.

How about some intellectual discourse on this concept?

I disagree with your thoughts. Not factoring in the basic principles of a higher weight oil, although the molecule is a bit larger, the oil isn't "backing up". Once at proper operating temps, the oil will flow adequately to remove heat and lubricate properly. Running 5w-20 not only is a risk to your motor, but it's promoting the smoking since the molecule is small enough to creep past the seals without much effort. IIRC, the seal tolerances are around .025 or something to that effect, which is large for a K04 compared to those in the VW/Audi community.

My MS6 is running 5W-20 and smoking like a chimney

That's your problem. Did you read the manual and see that 5w-30 is recommended?

 

[FORZDA 1]

What do you mean? How does taking the oil filler cap off demonstrate the faulty PCV system? What is it you see?

Hard to say, but the concept is that when you remove the oil cap you can place you hand or other "sensitive" appendage near hte opening and feel either a slight flow of air in OR out of the opening. Generally, at idle you would feel a slight draw of air into the opening. The problem with this test on the Speed3/6 is as mentioned earlier. The cam chain runs right below the opening, so you would get an oil spray out of the oil filler opening and void the test.

I don't know that the newer models don't have the problem. Most of them are too new to know. It's the same engine and turbo after all. All that's different (to my knowledge) is the EMS.

According to a shop that has inspected the new (2010) DISI the opening in the cam cover breather pipe is smaller in keeping with the PTP contention that the engine needs more crankcase vacuum at idle to keep the turbo shaft oil flowing freely out of the drain and into the crankcase.

 

[FORZDA 1]

......How about some intellectual discourse on this concept?

Already done in excruciating detail in this forum and others. Search, read and learn grasshopper.

 

[robin2660]

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml

Pat Goss interview with Rusty Wallace on engine oils. Running 0W oil in ultra high performance engines.

Another good discussion: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?57589-Using-A-0W-20

 

[robin2660]

According to a shop that has inspected the new (2010) DISI the opening in the cam cover breather pipe is smaller in keeping with the PTP contention that the engine needs more crankcase vacuum at idle to keep the turbo shaft oil flowing freely out of the drain and into the crankcase.

But, as I've also heard, the PTP fix doesn't always work. Wouldn't that indicate there are other factors operating?

 

[Blendercloud]

How many people are running 5W (or 0W)-20 and have smoking turbos? I really wonder if thinner oil is flowing better and not pushing past the seals. Mine is 33K and stock, running 5W-20, and no smoke, ever. I guess some genius is gonna suggest I am just lucky.

No one is seriously considering this concept. To further elaborate, it could be, in my mind, possible that thicker oil is only a temporary bandaid that's works by clogging the seals. The real problem is that the thicker oil is not returning quickly enough and thus backing up, building up pressure, and seeping past the seals.

It's no mystery that lighter oil flows better and results in less oil pressure, especially if there's a pressure bottleneck.

How about some intellectual discourse on this concept?

With 29,000 miles here and definitely not stock (see below) I'm running 5w-40 Rotella T-synthetic with no issues. My car has been running the Rotella 5w-40 synthetic oil for more than 10,000 miles now and I've never had an issue with smoking. I believe the seal design is that of a pressure seal; the more pressure put on the seal the tighter the seal becomes. The oil is definitely not 'backing up' though.

EDIT: I also have the PTP Fix.

 

[tunersteve]

Comparing a racing engine to ours is a bad move. Typically, they have MUCH tighter tolerances and are rebuilt frequently.

Bottom line, for now, 5w-30 and 5w-40 are the oils to use. In Europe, they also recommend 10w-40 in the EUDM owners manual for the 6MPS.

 

[funkytuqe]

That's your problem. Did you read the manual and see that 5w-30 is recommended?

I asked the dealer this specifically and they said they run this due to the colder climate in Canada... I dunno, i'll be back there again on Friday, hopefully they will have some real answers for me this time.

 

[tunersteve]

I asked the dealer this specifically and they said they run this due to the colder climate in Canada... I dunno, i'll be back there again on Friday, hopefully they will have some real answers for me this time.

Your dealer will also be the one who voids your warranty if you blow your motor. 5w-30 is fine, unless you're trying to start it in the dead of winter at -50*

 

[FORZDA 1]

But, as I've also heard, the PTP fix doesn't always work. Wouldn't that indicate there are other factors operating?

Well, yes there are indeed other factors. The total engine vacuum at idle, the condition of the PCV system itself, the amount of exhaust restriction in the turbine section, the fact that some turbos do fail and/or have a leaky seal, along with the possibility that there are owners who pay some bozo to change their oil for $12.95 and run the piss out of their car with no regard, along with folks who run 5w20 oil when 5e30 is specified for the engine.

Note that I can make practically ANY Speed3/6 car smoke at idle and I can ALSO clear it up just as easily. However, the only things in life that are unconditionally guaranteed are death and taxes, so YMMV.

 

[Blendercloud]

I asked the dealer this specifically and they said they run this due to the colder climate in Canada... I dunno, i'll be back there again on Friday, hopefully they will have some real answers for me this time.

That is definitely not the way to get around cold weather starting. In my race car I run straight SAE 50 weight and it is hard as hell to start in any temperature under 50F. I know exactly what you're talking about, but that's actually worse on your car than the cold weather starting and they should know better!

Do yourself a favor and switch to 5w-30 for winters and 5w-40 for all other times. Get yourself an engine block heater. That's what Mazda should have told you to do, but didn't since it didn't come with one from the factory.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Your dealer will also be the one who voids your warranty if you blow your motor. 5w-30 is fine, unless you're trying to start it in the dead of winter at -50*

Well, it won't be the dealer, it will be MNAO who voids your engine failure (for whaever reason) warranty because you followed a recommendation that conflicted with the MNAO specified oil weight.

Yes, and the "20" or "30" number isn't the issue for cold starts. The "5" vs a "0" is the cold start number.

 

[funkytuqe]

Your dealer will also be the one who voids your warranty if you blow your motor. 5w-30 is fine, unless you're trying to start it in the dead of winter at -50*

Well i certainly hope not since they are the ones that put it in there!!! The car has always had it's oil changes done at this dealer.

 

[tunersteve]

Well i certainly hope not since they are the ones that put it in there!!! The car has always had it's oil changes done at this dealer.

What Chris said is my suggestion. There's no excuse for 5w-20 in this motor.

 

[robin2660]

This page: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?46094-Viscosity-Of-Common-Oils-Chart shows xW-20 weight oils have operating (100C) viscosities from 9-10 cSt, while xW-30 oils range from 10-12. As I understand, the motor engineers design for operations in the 10 range. So, 9 is a little to thin and 12 is too thick. To blatantly recommend one or the other weight when there is truly so much range across manufacturers is reckless. Just because the label says xW-Y isn't the whole story.