new tuning option?

[MSMS3]

Chris, three more questions (sorry, but as a group we are more inclined to make decisions on objective data that we understand):

1. Why did your tune show a power gain with aftermarket CBE's when that seems to almost universally not be the case with all other dynos we've seen on our own cars? Replace the midpipe, yes. Replace the restrictive downpipe, absolutely, but we're not seeing this with CBE's unless or until power gets north of 300 whp. Why is your data different?

2. Can you show us actual data about AFR's from your dyno runs, (not just your summary chart) something we are all very keenly sensitive about, since leaning out is a known way to produce more power, but excessive leaning of the mixture has proven to be absolutely toxic to the life of our engines?

3. 169 hp for the stock engine on your dyno? Hummmmm. That raises a red flag for me. Label says 169, but chart seems to show 230-235 range. Please explain discrepancy compared to typical dyno runs posted here, even allowing for differences in type of dyno and operator/conditions. Alarmingly low if it was really 169. More typically stock at 230ish. Was that a highly heatsoaked engine and no fans/air supply to the IC and intake? If it is a chart labeling mistake, I think we'd prefer to see the dyno runs rather than a marketing driven sales oriented summary of them.

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

I might be misreading the available graphs, but do you have one that shows HP/Torque vs rpm instead of mph?
One other thing that has been found is that excessive low end power can be death to the rods in these engines. If we can see that graph, the suggestion might be made to use the load table to reduce the power in those lower rpms, as opposed to based on road speed, which I don't personally like the idea of. There is a company on here selling really nice (and correspondingly expensive) kits that produce dramatic power increases. Take a look at their power curves. They have a nice smooth ramp up to peak power, which is what we hope to see from your tune. Again, based on rpm, not road speed.

 

[MSMS3]

+1. RPM, please. Good catch, Mid_Life. I wonder if this also might be an error in preparing the chart. That's why I'd like to see the actual dyno pull data rather than someone making a glossy sales chart. The people making the chart might not be the people who actually are doing the development and tuning, probably are not.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Thank You Chris, I suspect this objective data will be well recieved.

I have a couple questions.

after instalation, the sport saves the original mazda tune. Can this tune be backed up via usb, for safekeeping?

what is the timeframe for reflashing to the mazda tune, so that the vehicle can be brought in for warranty work?

(and not to be rude, but implying you can take a speed3 into a dealer with a tune laid into the ECU and get MNA to honor the warranty was stunningly naive)

Thanks for the questions.

We do not have a provision for backing the stock tune up. There's simply no need to do that with our programmer. The programmer will not "erase" your stock calibration info. Because the programmer is locked to your vehicle, it will not work on another car until you have programmed yours back to stock.

Average time to go back to stock is 5 minutes.

No offense taken. I never said that a dealer wouldn't void your warranty if your car is programmed. I said that they can't legally do it. Dealerships can do anything. I've seen them attempt to void a warranty for installing aftermarket wheels and tires. We've had a long history of dealing with dealerships regarding vehicle warranties using Hypertech products, so we're definitely not naive.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

Chris, three more questions (sorry, but as a group we are more inclined to make decisions on objective data that we understand):

1. Why did your tune show a power gain with aftermarket CBE's when that seems to almost universally not be the case with all other dynos we've seen on our own cars? Replace the midpipe, yes. Replace the restrictive downpipe, absolutely, but we're not seeing this with CBE's unless or until power gets north of 300 whp. Why is your data different?

2. Can you show us actual data about AFR's from your dyno runs, (not just your summary chart) something we are all very keenly sensitive about, since leaning out is a known way to produce more power, but excessive leaning of the mixture has proven to be absolutely toxic to the life of our engines?

3. 169 hp for the stock engine on your dyno? Hummmmm. That raises a red flag for me. Label says 169, but chart seems to show 230-235 range. Please explain discrepancy compared to typical dyno runs posted here, even allowing for differences in type of dyno and operator/conditions. Alarmingly low if it was really 169. More typically stock at 230ish. Was that a highly heatsoaked engine and no fans/air supply to the IC and intake? If it is a chart labeling mistake, I think we'd prefer to see the dyno runs rather than a marketing driven sales oriented summary of them.

1. I'm not sure what tuning you are comparing to. Our data is Hypertech tuning/stock exhaust compared to Hypertech tuning with cat-back exhaust. The measured reduction in back pressure with the aftermarket CBE results in an increse of airflow to the engine, which resulted in the HP increase.

2. The actual AFR's are on the 5_CAI_Tuning.jpg chart. You can see that we're not leaning out the engine to get our power gains.

3. The HP numbers listed in the text box are referring to a specific point on the chart, which was our tested overboost reference point. Those arrows and numbers should point to the peak points of the curve, which you can see are more than 169 for the stock vehicle. I'll try to correct that and repost.

All of the information you see is produced by the tuning department. In fact, all published dyno charts, graphs, etc. on our website are supplied by the tuning department, and are published unaltered. Marketing people would just mess it all up!

 

[ridenfish39]

So, are you guys working on a tuner for the 2010? If so, how long until it comes out?

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

I might be misreading the available graphs, but do you have one that shows HP/Torque vs rpm instead of mph?
One other thing that has been found is that excessive low end power can be death to the rods in these engines. If we can see that graph, the suggestion might be made to use the load table to reduce the power in those lower rpms, as opposed to based on road speed, which I don't personally like the idea of. There is a company on here selling really nice (and correspondingly expensive) kits that produce dramatic power increases. Take a look at their power curves. They have a nice smooth ramp up to peak power, which is what we hope to see from your tune. Again, based on rpm, not road speed.

Here's a chart wit RPM vs. HP/Torque. This is off of our Dynojet, where the other charts posted are off of our Superflow AWD dyno.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

So, are you guys working on a tuner for the 2010? If so, how long until it comes out?

Not yet. We're rapping up the RX8, and we're working on the Miata. We'll keep everyone posted when we start on the 2010.

Thanks.

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

+1. RPM, please. Good catch, Mid_Life. I wonder if this also might be an error in preparing the chart. That's why I'd like to see the actual dyno pull data rather than someone making a glossy sales chart. The people making the chart might not be the people who actually are doing the development and tuning, probably are not.

The charts posted are the actual dyno pulls, from the actual person doing the tuning. Not all engineers are creatively challenged!!

 

[ridenfish39]

Not yet. We're rapping up the RX8, and we're working on the Miata. We'll keep everyone posted when we start on the 2010.

Thanks.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...no one loves us (nobody)

 

[MSMS3]

Here's a chart wit RPM vs. HP/Torque. This is off of our Dynojet, where the other charts posted are off of our Superflow AWD dyno.

Thanks. I'll ponder this a bit. Still looks like a sales promo rather than an actual dyno sheet, because of all the promotions stuff at the bottom and the hyping of the irrelevant gains at 6,500 rpm. I'll bet EGT's were sky high there! It's the 4k to 5.5k rpm range I'm interested in for our little K04 turbo. Glad to see that those numbers are in the chart.

I also share concerns of other posters that raising torque at 3,000 rpm may not be a good tuning decision on this engine which has plenty of torque to begin with and has a reputation of bending connecting rods when under load coming up on boost at the point of maximum torque.

I'd like to see no torque gains at lower rpm. Busting the tires loose in third and sometimes fourth gear already, but that's just me. Can't run race rubber on the street.

And could you please post those AFR's under load at various rpm's, please?

 

[Mid_Life_Crisis]

Thanks. I'll ponder this a bit. Still looks like a sales promo rather than an actual dyno sheet, because of all the promotions stuff at the bottom and the hyping of the irrelevant gains at 6,500 rpm.

There is definitely a bit of the "max increase at a given rpm" as opposed to "peak increase", which is always a much more impressive way of stating the gains.

I also share concerns of other posters that raising torque at 3,000 rpm may not be a good tuning decision on this engine which has plenty of torque to begin with and has a reputation of bending connecting rods when under load coming up on boost at the point of maximum torque.

I'm not sure how you reduce torque and still keep a smooth power curve for horsepower, reducing power is reducing power. I'm willing to sacrifice a little off the lower end to save my car's bottom end. I might just go with this if I could see a couple of changes.
1) No more restricting based on vehicle speed. Do it by rpm. I also don't care what gear I'm in, I'll feather the clutch/gas if I have to.
2) Take away a little of that bottom end power just for safety. By safety I mean my car's, not mine.

 

[meicalnissyen]

Thanks for the questions.

We do not have a provision for backing the stock tune up. There's simply no need to do that with our programmer. The programmer will not "erase" your stock calibration info. Because the programmer is locked to your vehicle, it will not work on another car until you have programmed yours back to stock.

Average time to go back to stock is 5 minutes.

No offense taken. I never said that a dealer wouldn't void your warranty if your car is programmed. I said that they can't legally do it. Dealerships can do anything. I've seen them attempt to void a warranty for installing aftermarket wheels and tires. We've had a long history of dealing with dealerships regarding vehicle warranties using Hypertech products, so we're definitely not naive.

The Back up is important for one reason:

your unit pukes at any time, for any reason, and I have no warranty

end of story

Very Glad no Offense was taken, Because if it was not naivete, then it was an attempt to mislead.


Thanks for the reposted graph using RPM, shape sure looks a bit different from the pretty one.

I thought you had posted earlier about avoiding the low RPM torque spike ??

seems somewhat prominent

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

The Back up is important for one reason:

your unit pukes at any time, for any reason, and I have no warranty

end of story

Very Glad no Offense was taken, Because if it was not naivete, then it was an attempt to mislead.


Thanks for the reposted graph using RPM, shape sure looks a bit different from the pretty one.

I thought you had posted earlier about avoiding the low RPM torque spike ??

seems somewhat prominent

In the event that your unit fails, we do have means to get you back to stock with another unit. This is one of the what if scenarios we have learned to design our products for over the years. This is part of the product warranty. As long as you are the origional purchaser, and the unit has been used on only one vehicle, we'll cover any issues like this free of charge.

As for the differences in the graphs, the resolution is a bit different on the two graphs, which accounts for one being smoother than the other. Also, the RPM graph is taken from our Dynojet, and the JPGs are from the Superflow AWD, which have a different load, so they are not going to be identical. The Superflow is much closer to actual load on the road and that graph shows how smooth the boost and power come on. The DynoJet is more readily available to most people, so rather than battle Superflow vs. DynoJet we just use what most people have access to. Both are very useful tools.

 

[meicalnissyen]

In the event that your unit fails, we do have means to get you back to stock with another unit. This is one of the what if scenarios we have learned to design our products for over the years. This is part of the product warranty. As long as you are the origional purchaser, and the unit has been used on only one vehicle, we'll cover any issues like this free of charge.

As for the differences in the graphs, the resolution is a bit different on the two graphs, which accounts for one being smoother than the other. Also, the RPM graph is taken from our Dynojet, and the JPGs are from the Superflow AWD, which have a different load, so they are not going to be identical. The Superflow is much closer to actual load on the road and that graph shows how smooth the boost and power come on. The DynoJet is more readily available to most people, so rather than battle Superflow vs. DynoJet we just use what most people have access to. Both are very useful tools.

Glad there is a provision for a reflash backup, warm fuzzy

understand dyno diffs, but still, the torque curve traces original shape almost exactly, just carries up higher as the original tapers off.

this would seem to be exactly what tosses rods

"We then realized that the low speed torque that the Hypertech tune makes was dramatically more than stock. The Hypertech tune just annihilates the tires when you put the pedal to the floor in first and second gear. "

There is inevitably a time, for even the most careful operator, when you feed throttle in 3,4,5th gear when the clock says 2200ish rpm
and this is where some folk, usually, but not always, with mods; have joined the zoom zoom boom club

 

[MSMS3]

"We then realized that the low speed torque that the Hypertech tune makes was dramatically more than stock. The Hypertech tune just annihilates the tires when you put the pedal to the floor in first and second gear. "

I agree that this is a bad thing. Just what we DO NOT need - more torque at 2500-3000 rpm.

I've got enough of this without a tune. I don't see any benefit beyond marketing hype for the company to increase torque at low rpm. And I agree that this excessive low rpm torque seems linked to connecting rod failure in these engines.

Show me control of low speed torque and then sustained flat torque and rising hp gains from 4k to 5.5-6k rpm and about two more pounds of boost compared to stock with acceptable AFR's please. That would be a winner.

 

[meicalnissyen]

"We then realized that the low speed torque that the Hypertech tune makes was dramatically more than stock. The Hypertech tune just annihilates the tires when you put the pedal to the floor in first and second gear. "

I agree that this is a bad thing. Just what we DO NOT need - more torque at 2500-3000 rpm.

I've got enough of this without a tune. I don't see any benefit beyond marketing hype for the company to increase torque at low rpm. And I agree that this excessive low rpm torque seems linked to connecting rod failure in these engines.

Show me control of low speed torque and then sustained flat torque and rising hp gains from 4k to 5.5-6k rpm and about two more pounds of boost compared to stock with acceptable AFR's please. That would be a winner.

RR has the curve, but its what we call in the medical feild, an "invasive" procedure

 

[Peak64]

How aboute the non USDM versions of Mazdaspeed3? Does this device work for European models as well?

//NS

 

[Chris@Hypertech]

How aboute the non USDM versions of Mazdaspeed3? Does this device work for European models as well?

//NS

We haven't been able to get our hands on a European model yet, so I can't answer that question. We need to see PCM and the calibrations. If the engines or emission systems are different from US models, we will have to get a car to tune it.