Mazdaspeed CAI

[BillTheCat]

you can install it yourself and still have it be under warranty the dealer doesnt have to do it

My local dealer disputes that claim. They say they have to do it, or you may as well buy aftermarket as far as warranty is concerned.

Moral of the story- check with YOUR local dealer to gauge their atittude towards these things, rather than making an asusmption, or taking someone else's word for it.

Between that attitude & the deal I got, I decided to go with a used Cobb SRI. Quick swap for stock if I need to visit the dealer, and much cheaper.

 

[funksilver07]

DAMN MSMS3 very nice job with the explanation. It will take a bunch of water to hydro lock this car...

 

[Stotrupp]

I have some difficulty accepting this statement. Not saying it's intended to be misleading, but it seems not consistent with the facts and may represent an underestimate of the water level involved.

Fact 1: The MSCAI's filter's bottom edge sits 9 inches above the pavement at its lowest point. This is a very large filter. The lower edge of the CAI intake pipe is 3 inches above that, 12 inches above the pavement.

Fact 2: The MSCAI's filter sits behind the left headlight and ahead of the left front tire. There is a fender liner between the wheelwell and the filter. That fender liner is sealed at the bottom and on all sides except for a series of horizontal vents that allow outside air to reach the filter.

Fact 3: Those vents are, at their lowest, 11 inches above the pavement, and 14 inches above the pavement at their highest.

I just checked my filter to see if it needed to be cleaned - it did not, so I thought I'd make a few measurements. (Incidentally, it's incredibly easy to access the filter, contrary to other statements here - turn wheel hard left, use shorty phillips head screwdriver to loosen the plastic fender liner - two metal bottom screws, two side plastic screws and peel the liner away, exposing the filter - maybe 3 minutes max).

Conclusion: 8-10 inches of water would not reach the lowest vent.

Water entering the lowest vent could get the bottom edge of the filter wet. That's not enough to cause hydrolock. It takes an almost completely saturated, water-soaked filter to produce hydrolock, and then it also takes a huge amount of engine vacuum (high rpm) to pull water up the entire intake tract, past the MAF. Typically, the engine will die from lack of oxygen before it can pull enough water to enter an intake valve.

That is because after the water column gets up past the MAF, it would then have to pass through the turbo inlet, through the compressor side of the turbo (water does not compress and this would stall the turbo), through the entire core of the intercooler and then, and only, then, finally into the intake manifold where it could enter the engine through an intake valve.

Hydrolock on this engine is possible, but it would take more like 14 inches of water, a sustained exposure to the water long enough to soak the filter, and then very high rpm to produce enough engine vacuum to get the water through the long, long track described above.

Those who think that CAI's do not work better than SRI's on this particular car, should dyno their SRI with the hood closed and the fan blowing through the radiator only (the way we drive our cars), rather than going for their numbers with the hood open.

I thought this thread was about Mazda making its CAI available again after getting it CARB certified, and not a new debate regarding SRI v. CAI.

Whatever makes you feel better I guess, keep telling yourself that Oh and the performance gains CAI vs. SRI are not notable on this car (Plenty of people have allready proven this, myself included). Been there done that so I know, don't need anyone trying to explain to me otherwise. You guys can continue on stroking yourself about how a CAI is this and that, etc but smart people aren't going to buy into the BS

P.S. If you thought this thread was about "Mazda making a CAI available again after getting it CARB certified and not a new debate regarding SRI v. CAI" then why did you bother writing a novel trying to justify your CAI purchase?

 

[funksilver07]

Well, if your that worried don't run one. I have run CAI's on virtually all of my cars over the last decade and not one hydrolock issue. Argue if you will but this is a rare thing to have happen. This is one of those topics that will never be settled on a forum like this... (mswerd)

 

[Niko MS3]

My local dealer disputes that claim. They say they have to do it, or you may as well buy aftermarket as far as warranty is concerned.

Moral of the story- check with YOUR local dealer to gauge their atittude towards these things, rather than making an asusmption, or taking someone else's word for it.

Between that attitude & the deal I got, I decided to go with a used Cobb SRI. Quick swap for stock if I need to visit the dealer, and much cheaper.

The MSCAI is warranty code GREEN!


Blue Warranty
MAZDASPEED "Blue" Performance Accessories must be installed by a MAZDASPEED Dealer on a US specification vehicle and be specifically approved by Mazda for the particular application. These parts are covered under the Mazda Replacement Parts and Accessories Limited Warranty and are warranted for the first 12 months/12,000 miles from the date of installation or the duration of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, whichever is longer. Should the parts be purchased but not installed by a MAZDASPEED Dealer, they will be covered for the first 12-months/12,000 miles from the date of purchase, excluding labor charges. Parts or accessories replaced/installed under warranty, are covered for the time remaining in the New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

Green Warranty
MAZDASPEED "Green" Performance Accessories must be specifically approved by Mazda for their particular application. These parts are warranted for the first 12-months/12,000 miles from the date of purchase, excluding labor.

Orange Warranty
MAZDASPEED "Orange" Performance Accessories are sold "as is" without any warranty of any kind. All implied warranties, including all warranties of merchantability of fitness for a particular purpose, are excluded. Purchaser acknowledges that no representations have been made regarding these parts, including but not limited to any representations as to their quality of performance, and purchaser shall be responsible for and bear all costs of repair of replacement due to any defect in or failure of these parts or any damage to other components. Purchaser acknowledges that vehicles equipped with MAZDASPEED "Orange" Performance Accessories shall not be operated on public highways. MAZDASPEED "Orange" Performance Accessories are intended solely for the use on vehicles participating in race/off-road competition events. Purchaser acknowledges that all Mazda vehicle/parts/accessory warranties are voided if the vehicle is used in a competitive event. Purchaser also acknowledges that there will be no warranty coverage for any part or accessory that fails as a result of the installation of a MAZDASPEED "Orange" performance part. Purchaser accepts all responsibility for all vehicle modifications and all potential risks. MAZDASPEED "Orange" Performance Accessories have been designed and are intended for race/offroad applications only. Federal and many state laws prohibit the removal, modification of, or rendering inoperative any part or vehicle system affecting emissions or safety.

What Is Not Covered
Damage or corrosion due to accidents, misuse, or alterations.
Damage or surface corrosion from the environment such as acid rain, airborne fallout (chemicals, tree sap), stones, salt road hazards, hail, wind storm, lightning, floods and other natural disaster.
Normal wear, tear or deterioration such as discoloration, fading, deformation, blurring, etc.
Replacement parts or accessories installed on any Mazda Vehicle registered or normally operated outside of the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, Saipan or American Samoa.
Replacement parts, or accessories installed on a Mazda Vehicle in which the odometer has been altered, or on which the actual mileage cannot be readily determined.
Replacement parts or accessories used in applications for which they are not designed.
Replacement parts or accessories installed improperly by dealers, Importer/Distributor other than Mazda.
Any replacement part or accessory without proof of purchase or replacement date.
Non-Mazda replacement parts or accessories which Mazda Dealers may sell or install on your Mazda Vehicle.
If the vehicle has been classified a total loss and/or sold for salvage purposes or branded for any other reasons.
Removal of the vehicle from the warranty covered market for which it was produced.

 

[hugador]

All i'll say is that hydrolock exist. So be careful for you CAI owners.

 

[zx2man]

blah blah blah....boy have i heard this arguement go over and over again..you have people who have never hydralock thier engines before saying dont worry cause its this many inches to the filter..and then you gotta have this and that and then you gotta divide by this..screw that..when you go cai..you are alwas running the risk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....will it happen..."prabaly" not...I had it happen to me..and the funny thing..kinda funny..cost me my zx2 engine..was..the water wasnt high..about 8 inches like descibed above..and my intake wasnt that low..I was using a hotshot air intake with the 45 degree elbow that makes the filter sit above the fender wall...so it was about 20 inches from ground..but some *****n how the water moved up into the engine bay when iwas driving through the puddle which happen to be at my apartment gate and the only entrance in and out..I really wasnt thinking I would flood the engine..i drove carefully and steady..but it happed..water got sucked in through the engine..and cause water doesnt compress will there went a rod right through the block..Ive heard stories about people driving through rain and storms and never having a prablem with the cai..and I believe that..for the most part you should be fine..but people saying its basicly impossible is complete bulshit and it does happen..and it happens more than you think it does..run any intake you want on your car...its america and you have the right to do what you want..but just remember there is alwas a slight risk..some people think its worth it..after my engine went boom..I personaly wont..Ill live with my cobb sri just fine. All the cai for the speed 3 are of good quality and make great gains for this car and I have no prablem with them. MSMS3 I alwas have respect on your thoughts of whatever the subject is..cause you know what your talking about..but because I have seen firsthand on exactly what happens and how it happens concerning hydrolock I figure I need to put my 2cents in. Lets keep it real fellas..both intakes have thier ups and downs..all in all both are much better than the stock intake...you have to decide where you live..hows the weather and your driving style and tastes..and then go from there. I just alwas feel if your more informed on what "could" happen then your better off from the get go..and thats 1 reason why people come to these forums..to get solid advise..words of wisdom so to speak..hopefully from real world first hand experience..so as a whole tuner community we can learn and grow from each other and enjoy the sport

 

[///M Compact]

I have some difficulty accepting this statement. Not saying it's intended to be misleading, but it seems not consistent with the facts and may represent an underestimate of the water level involved.

Fact 1: The MSCAI's filter's bottom edge sits 9 inches above the pavement at its lowest point. This is a very large filter. The lower edge of the CAI intake pipe is 3 inches above that, 12 inches above the pavement.

Fact 2: The MSCAI's filter sits behind the left headlight and ahead of the left front tire. There is a fender liner between the wheelwell and the filter. That fender liner is sealed at the bottom and on all sides except for a series of horizontal vents that allow outside air to reach the filter.

Fact 3: Those vents are, at their lowest, 11 inches above the pavement, and 14 inches above the pavement at their highest.

I just checked my filter to see if it needed to be cleaned - it did not, so I thought I'd make a few measurements. (Incidentally, it's incredibly easy to access the filter, contrary to other statements here - turn wheel hard left, use shorty phillips head screwdriver to loosen the plastic fender liner - two metal bottom screws, two side plastic screws and peel the liner away, exposing the filter - maybe 3 minutes max).

Conclusion: 8-10 inches of water would not reach the lowest vent.

Water entering the lowest vent could get the bottom edge of the filter wet. That's not enough to cause hydrolock. It takes an almost completely saturated, water-soaked filter to produce hydrolock, and then it also takes a huge amount of engine vacuum (high rpm) to pull water up the entire intake tract, past the MAF. Typically, the engine will die from lack of oxygen before it can pull enough water to enter an intake valve.

That is because after the water column gets up past the MAF, it would then have to pass through the turbo inlet, through the compressor side of the turbo (water does not compress and this would stall the turbo), through the entire core of the intercooler and then, and only, then, finally into the intake manifold where it could enter the engine through an intake valve.

Hydrolock on this engine is possible, but it would take more like 14 inches of water, a sustained exposure to the water long enough to soak the filter, and then very high rpm to produce enough engine vacuum to get the water through the long, long track described above.

Those who think that CAI's do not work better than SRI's on this particular car, should dyno their SRI with the hood closed and the fan blowing through the radiator only (the way we drive our cars), rather than going for their numbers with the hood open.

I thought this thread was about Mazda making its CAI available again after getting it CARB certified, and not a new debate regarding SRI v. CAI.

Just so you'll know, using facts and logic in a hydrolock thread won't get you anywhere...(laugh)

 

[coyfish]

Not trying to spur the CAI vs SRI anymore but you say you shouldn't dyno with your hood open??? When your moving the SRI is getting fresh air. Going at 30 mph enough air is going through that engine bay. At lower speeds i think the CAI might have an edge on intake temp but once your moving it really shouldn't make a diff.

 

[MSMS3]

If you thought this thread was about "Mazda making a CAI available again after getting it CARB certified and not a new debate regarding SRI v. CAI" then why did you bother writing a novel trying to justify your CAI purchase?

Only because you jacked the thread, and when you jacked it, you (1) injected SRI's into a discussion about a particular CAI and (2) stated as fact things which were not consistent with the location and design of the filter on this particular CAI.

For what it may be worth, I am 59 years old. I have been modding cars since the early 1970's with just about every type of filter and intake system imaginable. Muscle cars, off-road vehicles, SUV's European sports sedans and hatchbacks, etc. This is my fourth turbo car - previously Saabs and Volvos. When available, I have run CAI's on just about everything, and SRI's when no well-designed CAI is available. I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. We get over 60 inches of rain per year. We have torrential rains in certain seasons, and of course, little storms like Katrina with attendant high storm surge and flooding.

In over four decades of modding and racing performance vehicles, I have never encountered hydrolock personally. Nor have I seen it on any other vehicle except once, a generation 5 Corvette (normally aspirated, of course), owned by a neighbor. Those cars came from the factory with a very low mounted CAI system. He tried to drive it out of his yard after a hurricane. He gunned it (bad mistake) and then found out that the water on the street below his driveway was way higher than he thought (it went over his hood).

Hydrolock can happen. It's hard to do. NA vehicles are more vulnerable due to the direct path to the intake manifold and the absence of the turbocharger and intercooler between the intake and the engine. Even then, you usually have to make a big mistake in judging the depth of the water and have to have a pretty heavy right foot at the same time. Otherwise, the absence of air in the intake causes the engine to die before the water reaches an open intake valve.

 

[MSMS3]

but people saying its basicly impossible is complete bulshit and it does happen..and it happens more than you think it does..run any intake you want on your car...its america and you have the right to do what you want..but just remember there is alwas a slight risk..some people think its worth it..after my engine went boom..I personaly wont


but because I have seen firsthand on exactly what happens and how it happens concerning hydrolock I figure I need to put my 2cents in. Lets keep it real fellas..both intakes have thier ups and downs..all in all both are much better than the stock intake...you have to decide where you live..hows the weather and your driving style and tastes..and then go from there. I just alwas feel if your more informed on what "could" happen then your better off from the get go..and thats 1 reason why people come to these forums..to get solid advise..words of wisdom so to speak..hopefully from real world first hand experience..so as a whole tuner community we can learn and grow from each other and enjoy the sport

Your point is well-taken. Yes, it can happen. It is sad when you are the one who had it happen. It can even happen with the stock air box if you get in really deep water. And yes, there are strange circumstances when a filter may be located in an open fender well with no protection whatsoever from water being slung up as high as the top of the fender. When it happens, it is dramatic - bent connecting rods in particular.

But then, we can get struck by lightning. It happens to someone every day, somewhere right here in a town near each of us. The odds of getting hydrolock on our turbocharged intercooled engine from the MSCAI are probably about the same as a lightning strike, IMHO.

A lot of manufacturers of new cars are now using CAI intake systems from the factory or offering them as factory approved, dealer installed option packages with warranty. That is what Mazda has done.

I think Mazda has done a good thing by reintroducing its CAI after getting CARB approval on the air straightener. Their rebadged AEM product is high quality, makes good dyno numbers (even with the hood closed) and meets the needs of those of us who are prepared to accept the very small risk of hydrolock in exchange for getting true ambient temperature air from outside the engine bay, air that has not passed through the hot radiator on its way to the intake. Just my opinion.

 

[Stotrupp]

I've monitored BAT/ IAT, etc with both a CAI and SRI the results where roughly the same. There goes your theory about a CAI being a superior product.

 

[///M Compact]

I've monitored BAT/ IAT, etc with both a CAI and SRI the results where roughly the same. There goes your theory about a CAI being a superior product.

Wow.(squinty)

 

[MSMS3]

I've monitored BAT/ IAT, etc with both a CAI and SRI the results where roughly the same. There goes your theory about a CAI being a superior product.

The discussion always ends this way. I always ask for the Dash Hawk logs when these statements are made and they never come. Do they?

 

[Wehrmacht]

Anyhoot... the units are available wankers!

 

[Stotrupp]

The discussion always ends this way. I always ask for the Dash Hawk logs when these statements are made and they never come. Do they?

I honestly don't care if you believe me or not. I've made this observation when I had a MSCAI and now with a Cobb SRI, what I see is very little variance in IAT and BAT after I switched over to an SRI due to my MSCAI causing my car to hydro lock. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to run a CAI vice a SRI on this car.

You can theorize and stroke each other to death but it won’t change this fact. My 0-60 and 1/4et and trap times are better and it doesn’t matter if its 100F or 50F having the SRI sacrifices no downgrade in performance from my experience and the experience of many others that have made the switch.

I know it must be hard to swallow since a CAI is more expensive and harder to maintain etc, but it is what it is. I wouldn’t expect just anyone to trust my finding as I wouldn’t trust anyone else so you can just continue to theorize to your little hearts content.

 

[mr_mazda329]

You can theorize and stroke each other to death but it wont change this fact.

I lol'd. Imma take the side of Stotrupp on this one. With my SRI..my IAT's were ambeint at cruise as were my friends with the CAI. I saved money and weight.

 

[GoFast]

I lol'd. Imma take the side of Stotrupp on this one. With my SRI..my IAT's were ambeint at cruise as were my friends with the CAI. I saved money and weight.

like i said in a similar thread everybody...you all need to debate like adults.

With that said...Let me summarize here.
1. It has been proven many many times over that there is little to no difference in performance between the two.

2. While I won't say that a CAI is better I also won't say an SRI is better either.

3. If you are afraid of getting a CAI because of hydrolock you are being overly paranoid. I know a guy who has seen bigfoot but that doesn't make it real.

4. Either way you will have a great performance gain for relatively cheap.

5. Thinking you are gaining an advantage over a CAI because of weight savings, you are just fooling yourself.

6. If there are any more personal attacks on this subject warnings will be issued followed by infractions in they continue after that.

 

[Niko MS3]

like i said in a similar thread everybody...you all need to debate like adults.

With that said...Let me summarize here.
1. It has been proven many many times over that there is little to no difference in performance between the two.

2. While I won't say that a CAI is better I also won't say an SRI is better either.

3. If you are afraid of getting a CAI because of hydrolock you are being overly paranoid. I know a guy who has seen bigfoot but that doesn't make it real.

4. Either way you will have a great performance gain for relatively cheap.

5. Thinking you are gaining an advantage over a CAI because of weight savings, you are just fooling yourself.

6. If there are any more personal attacks on this subject warnings will be issued followed by infractions in they continue after that.

Thank you Nick haha.

 

[Design]

Not trying to spur the CAI vs SRI anymore but you say you shouldn't dyno with your hood open??? When your moving the SRI is getting fresh air. Going at 30 mph enough air is going through that engine bay. At lower speeds i think the CAI might have an edge on intake temp but once your moving it really shouldn't make a diff.

SRI's take advantage of cooler air through the upper grill's lower inlet (to an extent), which is why they can perform just as well as CAI's in most environments. Excessive stop & go driving would be the only limitation to the SRI (heatsoak). There's really no place for heat to dissipate when the car is stopped or barely moving.

Also, many tuners here in Cali dyno with the hood closed and high flow shop fan(s) to the upper/lower grills. Not only is it more accurate, but myself and several other members have noticed a total performance delta of +3-4% on the MSCAI alone. As I mentioned in another thread, the Air Induction works very well to cool the TMIC and shield it from the surrounding heat; even better than a smaller hand-held shop fan on top of the Intercooler.

EDIT: Here's Speedy 3's observations which were similar to mine. If anyone wants further explanation, I can post a video of the testing environment with the hood closed:

I made it a point when doing my before and after dynos, to do half with the hood open and half with the hood closed. My runs were in 3rd gear, because that is my favorite gear in this car! I just installed brand new plugs. 2 large fans were blowing on the front of the car about 5 feet away. I will post all of them as soon as I get home and get a chance to arrange the graphs. Specific environmental parameters are at the bottom.

I was surprised by the difference in output with the hood closed vs open. I had much higher gains with the hood closed with the MS CAI installed, but very little difference in the stock config.. Here are the peak numbers (btw, most of this data is in the first post in this thread minus the hood open data):

Stock
Hood Open:
HP: 237.49 (@5575),T: 238.60 (@4469)
Hood Closed:
HP: 239.01 (@5575), T: 241.25 (@4325)

Hood Open vs Closed Improvements
0.6% HP gain, 1.1% T gain

With MS CAI
Hood Open:
HP: 248.35 (@5525), T: 259.81 (@4375)
Hood Closed:
HP: 263.23 (@5525), T: 266.06 (@4700)

Hood Open vs Closed Improvements
6.0% HP gain, 2.4% T gain

Overall Gains
Hood Open:
HP: 4.6%, T: 8.9%

Hood Closed:
HP: 10.14%, T: 10.28%

Environmental Parameters

Dynojet Research Dyno on MAZDASPEED 3 in Stock Configuration

• Ambient Temp=64 deg. F
• Atmospheric Pressure=29.80 in-Hg
• Humidity=50%
• Correction Factor=SAE 0.98
• 2 Large Cooling Fans placed 5 ft. from front of car
• Hood Open for 2 runs, Closed for 2 runs
• Runs in 3rd gear only
• Runs started at about 2k RPM and stopped at about 6250 RPM.

Dynojet Research Dyno on MAZDASPEED 3 with MAZDASPEED CAI

• Ambient Temp=63 deg. F
• Atmospheric Pressure=29.90 in-Hg
• Humidity=53%
• Correction Factor=SAE 0.97
• 2 Large Cooling Fans placed 5 ft. from front of car
• Hood Open for 2 runs, Closed for 2 runs
• Runs in 3rd gear only
• Runs started at about 2k RPM and stopped at about 6250 RPM.