Mazdaspeed CAI

[mr_mazda329]

like i said in a similar thread everybody...you all need to debate like adults.

4. Either way you will have a great performance gain for relatively cheap.

5. Thinking you are gaining an advantage over a CAI because of weight savings, you are just fooling yourself.

I never made any personal attacks. I acknowledged that something was funny and agreed with IAT's matching between the two

4. I did save money going SRI. Enough so i could get a BPV too.

5. Was a joke and was being sarcastic. I know 2lbs wont make a difference on this car.

 

[Stotrupp]

If you're worried about heatsoak and want a notable increase in performance from the intake side get a FMIC.

So Mazda is selling their CAI again? It is a nice looking peice I wish they made it a short ram instead but oh well. Actually you could probably run it as a short ram....

 

[MSMS3]

SRI's take advantage of cooler air through the upper grill's lower inlet (to an extent), which is why they can perform just as well as CAI's in most environments. Excessive stop & go driving would be the only limitation to the SRI (heatsoak). There's really no place for heat to dissipate when the car is stopped or barely moving.

Also, many tuners here in Cali dyno with the hood closed and high flow shop fan(s) to the upper/lower grills. Not only is it more accurate, but myself and several other members have noticed a total performance delta of +3-4% on the MSCAI alone. As I mentioned in another thread, the Air Induction works very well to cool the TMIC and shield it from the surrounding heat; even better than a smaller hand-held shop fan on top of the Intercooler.

EDIT: Here's Speedy 3's observations which were similar to mine. If anyone wants further explanation, I can post a video of the testing environment with the hood closed:

Originally Posted by Speedy3
I made it a point when doing my before and after dynos, to do half with the hood open and half with the hood closed. My runs were in 3rd gear, because that is my favorite gear in this car! I just installed brand new plugs. 2 large fans were blowing on the front of the car about 5 feet away. I will post all of them as soon as I get home and get a chance to arrange the graphs. Specific environmental parameters are at the bottom.

I was surprised by the difference in output with the hood closed vs open. I had much higher gains with the hood closed with the MS CAI installed, but very little difference in the stock config.. Here are the peak numbers (btw, most of this data is in the first post in this thread minus the hood open data):

Stock
Hood Open:
HP: 237.49 (@5575),T: 238.60 (@4469)
Hood Closed:
HP: 239.01 (@5575), T: 241.25 (@4325)

Hood Open vs Closed Improvements
0.6% HP gain, 1.1% T gain

With MS CAI
Hood Open:
HP: 248.35 (@5525), T: 259.81 (@4375)
Hood Closed:
HP: 263.23 (@5525), T: 266.06 (@4700)

Hood Open vs Closed Improvements
6.0% HP gain, 2.4% T gain

Overall Gains
Hood Open:
HP: 4.6%, T: 8.9%

Hood Closed:
HP: 10.14%, T: 10.28%

Environmental Parameters

Dynojet Research Dyno on MAZDASPEED 3 in Stock Configuration
Ambient Temp=64 deg. F
Atmospheric Pressure=29.80 in-Hg
Humidity=50%
Correction Factor=SAE 0.98
2 Large Cooling Fans placed 5 ft. from front of car
Hood Open for 2 runs, Closed for 2 runs
Runs in 3rd gear only
Runs started at about 2k RPM and stopped at about 6250 RPM.

Dynojet Research Dyno on MAZDASPEED 3 with MAZDASPEED CAI
Ambient Temp=63 deg. F
Atmospheric Pressure=29.90 in-Hg
Humidity=53%
Correction Factor=SAE 0.97
2 Large Cooling Fans placed 5 ft. from front of car
Hood Open for 2 runs, Closed for 2 runs
Runs in 3rd gear only
Runs started at about 2k RPM and stopped at about 6250 RPM.

Thank you. This is the kind of information that is needed in this type of discussion. I'd be interested in seeing if the same differences in absolutes and in delta exist with a typical SRI install when dynoed hood up and hood down.

 

[MSMS3]

So Mazda is selling their CAI again? It is a nice looking peice I wish they made it a short ram instead but oh well. Actually you could probably run it as a short ram....

Indeed, you can easily run it as a short ram, if you prefer. The filter will attach to the short tube. I've tried it both ways and just think it performs better for me as a true CAI.

 

[Stotrupp]

Thank you. This is the kind of information that is needed in this type of discussion. I'd be interested in seeing if the same differences in absolutes and in delta exist with a typical SRI install when dynoed hood up and hood down.

Fans don't stimulate real wheel world driving conditions 100%, there’s no substitute. People in the know are aware that the difference between CAI vs. SRI is not notable enough to warrant one superior. Why don’t you just do your own test since you can switch over to an SRI with your MSCAI? I know the outcome but just for you own personally satisfaction.

Trust me I was a bit disappointed and in disbelief as well until I found out first hand. It's just the whole process of passing through the hot turbo and then through the intercooler, etc a few degrees lower temps on the intake side don't make that much of a difference when all said and done.

Heat soak is an issue with are without a CAI regardless due to having a TMIC. Not only this, the MS3 makes more than enough torque heat soaked or not in gears 1-2nd to spin the tires no problem. So the stop and go scenario doesn't hold any ground either and it takes no time for intake temps to drop right back down to close to ambient once you’re moving again. Besides even if a CAI did make more power in stop and go traffic, who the hell cares?? You're in a stop and go traffic..

 

[MSMS3]

Why dont you just do your own test since you can switch over to an SRI with your MSCAI? I know the outcome but just for you own personally satisfaction.

Thanks for the suggestion. I believe I will do just that. Hood will be closed in both modes. My mods are different than yours, so you may not accept the results.

I can't come anywhere close to your 2.0 second 60 foot times. High 2.1's are the best I can do, but I somehow manage to eeke out 13.4's at 107 in cooler weather.

Let me see if I can get some dyno time and we'll see. May take a while to set this up with my work schedule, but regardless of the outcome, I'll post.

I have already done this with repeated accelerometer (G-Tech Pro) runs and consistently get better results with the CAI, especially from 60-100 mph. You can't get full power in first or second gear anyway due to ECU hold back, so the difference is mostly "up top."

Report to follow, all in the interest of objective science.

 

[Lil_vicious559]

(lurk)This has been discussed before over and over. A SRI doesn't effect Turbo car's as much as car's being N/A. Turbo'd cars are being cooled through the intercooler. Thus if you get heatsoak, it will effect N/A cars being too much heat coming from the engine bay. As far as Turbo applications vehicles go, A CAI is good but IAT's doesn't really show much of a difference between the two. I like the Cold air though

 

[Stotrupp]

Thanks for the suggestion. I believe I will do just that. Hood will be closed in both modes. My mods are different than yours, so you may not accept the results.

I can't come anywhere close to your 2.0 second 60 foot times. High 2.1's are the best I can do, but I somehow manage to eeke out 13.4's at 107 in cooler weather.

Let me see if I can get some dyno time and we'll see. May take a while to set this up with my work schedule, but regardless of the outcome, I'll post.

I have already done this with repeated accelerometer (G-Tech Pro) runs and consistently get better results with the CAI, especially from 60-100 mph. You can't get full power in first or second gear anyway due to ECU hold back, so the difference is mostly "up top."

Report to follow, all in the interest of objective science.

Well my 13.9@100 was when I was bone stock and mostly due to my 2.0'60ft most of my runs were 14.2-14.4. I'm pretty sure with the right conditions I can run a 13.7@ 102-104 with the intake. I might go to the track again in the near future just to see. Have fun with your testing!

P.S. Thats a pretty impressive 1/4 time but I'm sure you could've done the same with an sri

 

[MSMS3]

(lurk)This has been discussed before over and over. A SRI doesn't effect Turbo car's as much as car's being N/A. Turbo'd cars are being cooled through the intercooler. Thus if you get heatsoak, it will effect N/A cars being too much heat coming from the engine bay. As far as Turbo applications vehicles go, A CAI is good but IAT's doesn't really show much of a difference between the two. I like the Cold air though

I like the cold air thing too. But the intercooler does not solve the IAT/BAT problem because, intercooler's are not 100% efficient, so the losses from rise in IAT and ineffeciency at the intercooler are additive in effect on BAT. It may be little or a lot depending on how much outside air can actually get into the engine bay.

IMHO, forced induction engines compound the problem regarding rising IAT under the hood because compressing air generates more underhood heat and the IC only removes part of it. And, you just don't get much air flow in the engine compartment of most cars with the hood down. Most of the air flow gets channelled through the radiator and/or oil coolers. The vents on the front of our car seem to do the same thing except for the ram air to the IC. That is great, but that ram air is sealed around the IC except for a small part that is diverted to the battery box.

I honestly don't know how much ambient air gets a chance to get to an SRI on our engine. That's why I want to dyno with hood closed and fans blowing as in the protocol posted above, and do this with the MSCAI in both modes.

Call me crazy, but my suspicion is that there is not really much ambient air coming in to counter the effect of engine heat, exhaust heat and turbocharger heat (which is very high). We'll get some answers.

In the interim, here's an interesting read on some dyno testing done by Kenne Bell on supercharged (but not intercooled) engines and the issue of cold air versus under hood air. Maybe their data will not transfer to an IC equipped forced air application? Maybe their data would not transfer to the particular way our cars provide access to ambient air with the hood closed? I don't know, but it is one of several reasons I think that the science better supports CAI on forced induction engines.

 

[mr_mazda329]

Call me crazy, but my suspicion is that there is not really much ambient air coming in to counter the effect of engine heat, exhaust heat and turbocharger heat (which is very high). We'll get some answers.

Your crazy...lol


Naw, but really, while i am cruising, my IAT falls to, or just above outside ambient air temps with the SRI. You have to remember when your driving, air will be moving in from the front (Raditor) and TMIC seal. The air is gonna force the heat back thru the exhaust tunnel and wipercowl if anything.

 

[MSMS3]

Your crazy...lol


Naw, but really, while i am cruising, my IAT falls to, or just above outside ambient air temps with the SRI.

What method are you using to measure IAT or ambient air temperature?

 

[MSMS3]

Your crazy...lol


Naw, but really, while i am cruising, my IAT falls to, or just above outside ambient air temps with the SRI.

Yeah, I've been called much worse and sometimes might even deserve it! lol.

BTW: What method are you using to measure IAT or ambient air temperature?

 

[Stotrupp]

Yeah, I've been called much worse and sometimes might even deserve it! lol.

BTW: What method are you using to measure IAT or ambient air temperature?

Probably a dash hawk seeing he's got one listed in his sig. I use a dash hawk as well and my observations have indicated that IAT, BAT, AAT go down rapidly and are close to real ambient temperatures once the car is in motion with an SRI. When I had a CAI installed the numbers might have been a tad lower but not low enough to render it superior in my opinion.

Honestly man this whole CAI vs. SRI argument is ridiculous, either one will net you pretty decent gains for the price and one or the other isn’t vastly more superior. Anyone real serious about making more power will get a FMIC, this whole which intake thing is just silly because either way you go it’ll net you about 15-20hp.

 

[MSMS3]

There are good maximum gains under ideal conditions with both setups.

Stotrupp, you may be right. I don't know. I follow the evidence-based science. I'm just having trouble seeing how significant amounts of cool air are getting in, considering how the front grill of these cars is configured. Air, after passing through the radiator, is going to be quite a bit warmer.

I'd really like to see some DH datalogs on IAT and BAT values on both setups.

Call me a science oriented skeptic, call me foolish, call me crazy, but show me the data. I may become the most forceful advocate of SRI, once I can see hard, reliable data.

Until then, I tend to think the Kenne Bell folks (among many others), using evidence-based science to reach their conclusions probably know what they are talking about regarding CAI's and SRI's.

Dyno results to follow once I can get dyno time schedule and my time schedule to match.

 

[GoFast]

this thread is like a broken record guys. You are all saying things that have been said over and over again in this constant debate that pops up over and over again. The results are always the same and someone usually ends up getting banned.

So for now...this thread is closed