Your thoughts on the MS3 engine?

[I vtec do you?]

I don't think you're retarded, I just think you're an asshole for launching into my threads and calling me a spoiled brat who grew old with the first toy his parents bought for him and now he wants another. I also think you just choose to ignore what I say and argue rather than accept when I'm right. Especially where you said that honda doesn't limit any power before vtec, and then right away you start talking about how hondata smooths out the power right before it.. exactly what I said.

There is NO EM for the 06+ SI like you keep stating. I don't know why you keep stressing this. There are only piggy-backs available. And yes, I do know the Greddy Emanage sucks, I never said it was good. It's just the only thing out there..

And lets be realistic, you started the personal attacks first. I did no such thing, until you came in calling me a spoiled brat and trying to correct me when you were wrong.

I never said my parents weren't helping me like you said. I said there was no money coming from them. I pay it all. There are no months when they just decide that I can skip the payment.
And to be honest, I'm not too concerned about credit. I have my own credit card and spend about $600/month on it, which I always pay off on time. I think my credit is going to be fine.

 

[Scott]

Most standalones can be modified to work with nearly any EFI application. Look how well DIY setups like Megasquirt have worked.

And I'll explain once more what Hondata does. They sacrifice a small amount of power right before VTEC engagement in order to reduce the noticeable "hump" in the powerband. It's still there, it just isn't as pronounced as stock.

 

[MS6S2K]

Two totally different engines, with 100% different styles obviously. My S2000with the 2.2, is a BLAST. Ok, so there's no real power til about 5500rpms, but that's the very thing that makes it special and fun. It's like a normal car that gets 30mpg, but then BAM, the personality of the car transforms instantly. Just a regular Honda when you want it to be, then a little nightmare when you want it to be.

I'd say my S2000 engine is definitely more impressive and innovative though, because it's pushing out about 210whp naturally, and the Speed 3/6 engine is all about BOOST to make it's power. Also, those engines have proven themselves to be very reliable and long lasting, so the cost to own is less. If you had to place a wager on which engine will last longer and cost less to maintain, put all your money on the Honda.

Take your pic, depending on your personality, or if you can afford to, own both.

 

[jeffmsp]

I think a lot of people that are more serious into dumping money into their car for a real beat will take the SI over the MS3 due to the fact that the civic has and always will have the larger tuning crowd and available aftermarket. The SI makes incredible power, it just needs some money.

all this talk about how good the si engine is makes me laugh. in the late 80s mazda made the FE DOHC (or FE3) engine. 2.0l DOHC. It is only 28 flywheel HP off from the K20, makes good power everywhere, has a bullet proof bottom end known to hold 400WHP and is over 20 years old in design. Whats so good about the SI aside from low emmissions?

 

[funkyman]

You donuts,back in 1990 Mazda had a stock factory Turbo beautiful 323 GTX Formula 4 1.8i Turbo 4x4 it was close to 200hp faster than any civic today after 16 years.Heheheh

 

[I vtec do you?]

all this talk about how good the si engine is makes me laugh. in the late 80s mazda made the FE DOHC (or FE3) engine. 2.0l DOHC. It is only 28 flywheel HP off from the K20, makes good power everywhere, has a bullet proof bottom end known to hold 400WHP and is over 20 years old in design. Whats so good about the SI aside from low emmissions?

Don't ask me, ask the millions of people and countless companies who stand behind it to make it such a successful tuner car.

I'm not personally saying the SI motor is better than the MS3 motor, but you gotta wonder why the civics have such a giant tuning crowd, right? It just has a beautifully made engine.. it just needs some money unlocking all the power.

 

[GoFast]

the reason why the civics have such a big tuning crowd has nothing to do with it being a "good" motor. It is good because there are million of them on the road and they are cheap. A limited production vehicle will never have a huge after market for it because of the first two words...."limited production" and that equals......."limited profits!!

 

[funkyman]

the reason why the civics have such a big tuning crowd has nothing to do with it being a "good" motor. It is good because there are million of them on the road and they are cheap. A limited production vehicle will never have a huge after market for it because of the first two words...."limited production" and that equals......."limited profits!!

Well said the Mazda is a 25K car after taxes and fees not 23 thats for sure.GT with Nav is almost 30k after taxes and fees,gap,extended etc infact over 30k.

 

[Betelgeuse]

the reason why the civics have such a big tuning crowd has nothing to do with it being a "good" motor. It is good because there are million of them on the road and they are cheap. A limited production vehicle will never have a huge after market for it because of the first two words...."limited production" and that equals......."limited profits!!

+1

Money talks.

 

[I vtec do you?]

the reason why the civics have such a big tuning crowd has nothing to do with it being a "good" motor. It is good because there are million of them on the road and they are cheap. A limited production vehicle will never have a huge after market for it because of the first two words...."limited production" and that equals......."limited profits!!

Look I'm not trying to start a fight, but if you don't beleive the k series motor isn't one of the most advanced 4 cylinder engines around, then you need to do more research. Hitting over 500 WHP on a k20z3 with no mods to the internals and no proper EM system isn't something most cars can brag about.

 

[knowledge007]

Don't ask me, ask the millions of people and countless companies who stand behind it to make it such a successful tuner car.

I'm not personally saying the SI motor is better than the MS3 motor, but you gotta wonder why the civics have such a giant tuning crowd, right? It just has a beautifully made engine.. it just needs some money unlocking all the power.

And how much do you have to drop to get the power that would anywhere near what an MS3 puts out from factory... And please enough with the "I don't want to start a fight" crap. Have a friggin back bone for christ sake.

 

[GoFast]

Look I'm not trying to start a fight, but if you don't beleive the k series motor isn't one of the most advanced 4 cylinder engines around, then you need to do more research. Hitting over 500 WHP on a k20z3 with no mods to the internals and no proper EM system isn't something most cars can brag about.

listen kid, learn to read a post for what it is and quit thinking everybody is trying to disagree with you. I never said it wasn't a good engine. What i said is that the reason the car/motor has such a good after market and tuning crowd has nothing to do with the engine being good, it is because they are plentiful in supply. The MS3 is a limited production car and that means there is only "x" amount of potential profit. When you have a car that is duplicated a million times over there is the 1000 times greater potential for more profit! It is simple marketing. Do you think that these after market companies get into this business just so that they can help little punks like you make there cars faster?? NOPE! they do it for MONEY and PROFIT!! Also, just for the record, I have an 07 SI sitting in my driveway too, so don't think that I am just some MS3 fanatic who thinks they are the only car in the world.

Secondly, if you are going to get your freaking panties all bunched up every time somebody disagrees with you about a car that you allegedly want to get rid of because its not fast enough for you, then get the off the forum. Go back to your little Honda tuner forums and tell them all how mean we are over here and that your SI is so much better than the MS3 and you can be mr. hero 19 year old over there. You came on this board asking for opinions and just because you didn't like them you got all defensive. IMHO you came on here just to start s***. If I am wrong and you came on here to get true honest opinions, then grow a sack and make a choice. s*** or get off the pot. If you don't like your car then go get something you like.

 

[Betelgeuse]

Yeah, just sell the car already and be done with it. You came to a mazda forum so what did you expect to hear? Not everyone (including myself) are impressed with Honda's approach. It's not that it isn't a good motor, it's just not God's gift to man like some people make it out to be. And If I was really serious about tuning for straighline performance (ie >500 hp), I'd look elsewhere - mustang or used vette comes to mind - or something rwd. The last thing I'd want is a front wheel drive with a tiny engine.

And how much the si motor can possibly take isn't helpful when you're not planning to go that far to begin with, or when your finances don't allow it. Sell it privately or trade it. I heard they hold their value pretty well so you shouldn't lose that much and you'll finally have something you're happier with (hopefully).

 

[chriscecc914]

Don't ask me, ask the millions of people and countless companies who stand behind it to make it such a successful tuner car.

I'm not personally saying the SI motor is better than the MS3 motor, but you gotta wonder why the civics have such a giant tuning crowd, right? It just has a beautifully made engine.. it just needs some money unlocking all the power.

the reason why honda's are so popular in the tuner world is 1. because a "cool" kid in high school gets one so everyone wants to be like him 2. The fast and the furious movie was produced.

They are also popular in alot of urban area's because most of there parts are interchangable which makes it easy for car strippers and chop shops to sell the stolen goods for extremely cheap.

When your top model honda "supercar" only makes 300hp, whats the point? Yes, the NSX makes only 300hp!

 

[djarkitek]

UHH...from what i remember hondas have always been known to just be, cheap cars, with engines that lasted a long time...there is nothing magical about hondas....unless you want to save gas money and buy a cheap car. the reason so many are tuned is based off the same reason. they are cheap,reliable, and since everyone has em, some like to tune them.

and back onto the topic at hand. i would never even compare the si to the ms3. production and sofistication wise, the ms3 was set to a higher level in my mind. although the k20 is great it comes back to the same problem i have with many handa engines...no power when you need it...i'm not into waiting until 6000+ rpm for my super vtec power to finally get me going. race wise, the si does'nt stand a chance versus the ms3. the fact of the matter is to, for the si to have a chance it would have to do what that guy from the other forum was ragging on so much. a turbocharged si is more likely to stand a chance than anything.

mazda took a lot of time and effort into planning this car and obviously got it right. countless magazines have proclaimed it the best deal for a midsize car these days. in fact there are many more cars than just the ms3 making the si look bad. if i were an si guy, i'd work on getting past the wrx before worrying about the ms3...

 

[I vtec do you?]

Ahh you guys are pointless to argue with.. The MS3 comes stock with a snail and all of a sudden you guys think you own a vastly superior car.

I don't need to 'grow a backbone'. I'm a scrawny 18 year old hiding behind a computer, there are no 'backbones' to grow on the internet.

And I'm not getting defensive about my SI, I started this thread to learn more about the MS3 engine and somehow you guys turned it into a MS3 vs Civic SI engine thread. So yeah..

And lets not pretend the only reason the Civic is a tuner's choice car is because they're plentiful. I see corollas, proteges and mazda3s EVERYWHERE, yet if you try and turbo a mazda3, you have what, 1 choice? Why? Because it's just not the choice for the tuning crowd.

 

[jeffmsp]

yet if you try and turbo a mazda3, you have what, 1 choice? Why? Because it's just not the choice for the tuning crowd.

Eh, most people with mazdas dont need a kit, they are smart enough to piece a turbo setup for themselves. just because people dont make kits for a car doesnt mean its not part of the "tuning crowd". there are more mazdas racing on any given weekend in north america then any other kind of car. Id say they are running the "tuning crowd". The mazda3 is one car, how many SC and turbo kits are available for the miata and rx7/8?

Ahh you guys are pointless to argue with.. The MS3 comes stock with a snail and all of a sudden you guys think you own a vastly superior car.

Like I was saying, take your SI and any mazdaspeed vehicle (protege, 3,6,miata) to any kind of track and you will see what we mean. We will run circles around a new SI. Stock for Stock, or modded vs modded providing equal talent in the tuners of the cars.

 

[GoFast]

Ahh you guys are pointless to argue with.. The MS3 comes stock with a snail and all of a sudden you guys think you own a vastly superior car.

again dude, learn to read everything before you start spewing off your rants... i said in my last post..."so don't think that I am just some
MS3 fanatic who thinks they are the only car in the world, I have an SI sitting in my driveway too.

So get off this whole kick of us thinking we have the greatest car in the world. And quite frankly when compared to the SI, our car is better. Not just the engine, but over all refinement. again, my fiance has an SI that i drive all the time. I have driven both of them. I think the ride in the SI is cheap and unrefinded, the engine is so so, the lack of power down low is terrible.

And I'm not getting defensive about my SI, I started this thread to learn more about the MS3 engine and somehow you guys turned it into a MS3 vs Civic SI engine thread. So yeah..

you really should re-read your first post in this thread. We aren't the ones who turned it in to a SI vs. MS3 engine post, you did.

And lets not pretend the only reason the Civic is a tuner's choice car is because they're plentiful. I see corollas, proteges and mazda3s EVERYWHERE, yet if you try and turbo a mazda3, you have what, 1 choice? Why? Because it's just not the choice for the tuning crowd.

And how many mazda3's do you see for 1500 dollars?? almost none. how many civics do you see for 1500? thousands.

and there is plenty of after market for all those other cars. again, if you don't like the mazdas get off the board and be happy with the SI. Quit crying about it, then getting all upset that if people don't care for it. it is as simple as that.

 

[justa4banger]

what do i think about my MS3engine.......... hmm much better value than any Honda motor ever produced. I like hondas, great for gas mileage and great record of dependability.
Problem with honads IMO is the lack of torque, Hp is great, but trq puts you in the seat and moves your ass.
Problems with the MS3, well first was the engineers that decided that they would incorporate a trq limiting technique to keep the average idiot from killing himself with crazy amounts of trq steer.
I agree there needs to be a way to control it so the average mom/pop doesn't over correct or NOT correct for the trq steeer. I just wish mazda had a way to override it for the REAL Enthusists. the reason the MS3 falls on its face up top is due to not needing to spin that high of a rpm. Ok the motor is safe to go to 6700 rpm, WHY......... imo its due to the very close ratio gear box and the possibilty to over rev the enigne with the wrong gear selection. Thats my opinion.
If a engine is set up to run in a certain range then keep it in its happy range.

Whats funny about all this crying, over not having any power up top, is this.....if mazda had set the redline to 5700 rpm, no one would be any wiser and just assume the car doesn't go any higher. Just because the engine CAN spin that fast doesn't mean YOU need to.

I have a friend with an SI and i admit its a nice car, i wouldn't buy one, but to each their own. the 2 cars MAY be in the same class, but they are 2 totally, non comparable, animals.

Oh speaking of old technoligy...........check my sig. My poor ole SVO is powered by early 1970's technoligy.. the actual 2.3 lima motor has been around since 74, the 2.0 lima motor has been around since 71 or so. First turbo version was in 77 or 79 i forget, first FUEL INJECTED TURBO was in 84. My old ass 2.3 still holds it own. my setup is good for about 350 whp and close to 400ft lbs wtrq. (done some new mods since the sig).
The motor is stout and their have been several people to make almost 600WHP on a stock short block. ONe guy made 572whp on a short block with 100k miles already LOGGED.
Why no support, well because most people who love mustangs, love V8's plain and simple.
People who love 4cyl usually go for hondas, thats why their is such a vast following of after market support. Its not because they are better. Show me another Honda motor that can make the power (TRQ) that my lima motor can make with the same setup. Oh wait not one honda motor can handle 27psi of boost....... atleast not without building the s*** out it. I still have cast rods and crank. forged pistons were factory units, nothing special.

Best thing i love about my silly 4 banger stang................... It DOESN'T SOUND like a ricer honda............

 

[fourthmeal]

There is only 1 Honda engine that I ever loved, and it was V. Yep, it was a V-4. The VFR motorycle's 800cc V-4, to be precise. It sounded like a muscle car, and it was smooth like butter. It didn't make much horsepower, but it had torque, and it had a decent redline.

Other then that, I've not found Honda to make any specially durable or reliable engine.

I've had a Nissan 240sx KA24DE that had 188,000 when I sold it (ran fine)
I've owned a rotary engine RX-7, that had 268,000 miles on it, etc.


Best engine maker in my opinion: Mazda OR Nissan. I'd say Toyota, but the only luck I've had w/ Toyotas is a shitload of headgaskets.

(second)