Winter - Stability Control scare

[LukeP]

have you ever driven any non-DSC equipped cars with summer only tires in similar conditions and taken a similar action to see how the car reacted?

I drove a 1994 civic hatchback for ten years with poorly treaded all seasons. I think I bought new tires for it once when I went in for new valve stems, and they said my steel belts were actually desintegrating, and I was probably going to die when they burst. I had to slide around in ruts a lot in that car, if I slowed down it would be stuck there until spring! Also, a 1987 2WD Wrangler with not so much what I'd call tires but rubber canvases, and rear drum brakes that - only - seized and locked up under any amount of braking. 2003 Corolla, 2005 Accord...um....bad work trucks that had no business being plated with tires the "company" deemed reasonable. This is my first DSC-equipped vehicle that I've driven under poor conditions.

They were all easily controllable in a slide situation and they all reacted as expected - the Wrangler defintely had to be caressed into turns and was prone to stalling randomly, but it too could be feathered back in line with a touch of steering angle when it got out. If it had DSC, it probably would have never moved, which is probably the best recommendation for that junker. The bad work trucks were the worst, I'll take the MS3 with Potenzas any day over those.

Also, to the Kindersley man, I'm from the City that Rhymes with Fun.

 

[jred321]

so to answer my question no?

 

[ecniemann]

Luke, check out this link:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123684925&highlight=totalled

Goes to show all systems are not fool proof.

I agree with you that it may not have reacted the best way, but I also agree that, unless you were unaware like I was (that the tires were summer only), that you have no business running summer tires in winter conditions. I found out the hard way after the first snow storm, but I have an excuse. I bought the car in January and needed to get it home. I finished up that winter with the Potenzas, but swore never again.

 

[nhluhr]

The TSC actually works quite well! It allows some slip, lets the car drag along without bogging. I'm also pretty confident that some dudes around a water cooler are the scientific experts in all fields. But seriously, there are some conditions here that you actually need to slide a little bit. Giant ruts for instance - your tires are going to be those grooves even if it means your yaw is off kilter, and you can't stop in an interstection like that. You have to slide through it if you have to. If DSC tries to stop you in those giant ruts, its going to take a tow truck to get you out. So I still don't buy all this DSC defense, and I never will.

But, again this isnt a DSC: Better without it? thread. This is a - hey man watch out - thread.

Alphabet Soup! When I said "TSC" i meant "Traction & Stability Control" not TCS (Traction Control System). I guess I should have stuck to the Mazda acrynym "DSC".

Gotta love how manufacturers come up with these acronyms all meaning roughly the same concept...

DSC
VDC
TSC
etc. . .

 

[LukeP]

Luke, check out this link:

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123684925&highlight=totalled

Goes to show all systems are not fool proof.

That sucks man! Insurance won't pay? What do you have to do, just take the thousands of dollars in loss? Did you have to get lawyers involved? Yikes. At least you walked away. I guess there's so many ways for lawyers to blame you on the failure of the ABS System that you're stuck.

Yeah those summer tires on the MS3 are holarious on ice. I'm certainly not going to recommend anyone keep them on longer than they should. I haven't had too many traction problems in -10C on dry pavement though. The tires are a little slipperier, they feel like they have that 'brand new tire' slickness to them, spinning at high torque easily and such. If I put winter tires on right now though, in the freak warm weather we're experiencing right now, I'm afraid I'd scrub the siping right off with the torque this thing puts down, even at partial throttle.

 

[nhluhr]

I have no fear with summer tires on cold dry pavement. The idea that summer tires lose all their grip below 40 degrees is absolute fiction. Maybe summer tires from 10 years ago did that but modern summer tires are made with heavy concentrations of silica which doesn't harden in cold temperatures like good old carbon black rubber. The RE050A's will have better traction on cold DRY pavement than any winter tire... however, introduce any precipitation and the situation is quickly reversed.

I don't care if the weather report says it's gonna be 10 degrees... as long as there is no snow/rain in the forecast, I am not going to bother swapping into my winters (yet). But then again, I am a weather nut and watch it religiously... I can swap my tires over in about 15 minutes in my garage so I don't have to be too early putting them on.

 

[LukeP]

so to answer my question no?

Uhh, maybe I was being to subtle.

YES I HAVE.

My entire driving life was spent behind the wheel of a non-DSC equipped car.

please see my previous post on impressions on driving such vehicles in similar conditions.

 

[jred321]

have you ever driven any non-DSC equipped cars with summer only tires in similar conditions and taken a similar action to see how the car reacted?

I drove a 1994 civic hatchback for ten years with poorly treaded all seasons. I think I bought new tires for it once when I went in for new valve stems, and they said my steel belts were actually desintegrating, and I was probably going to die when they burst. I had to slide around in ruts a lot in that car, if I slowed down it would be stuck there until spring! Also, a 1987 2WD Wrangler with not so much what I'd call tires but rubber canvases, and rear drum brakes that - only - seized and locked up under any amount of braking. 2003 Corolla, 2005 Accord...um....bad work trucks that had no business being plated with tires the "company" deemed reasonable. This is my first DSC-equipped vehicle that I've driven under poor conditions.

They were all easily controllable in a slide situation and they all reacted as expected - the Wrangler defintely had to be caressed into turns and was prone to stalling randomly, but it too could be feathered back in line with a touch of steering angle when it got out. If it had DSC, it probably would have never moved, which is probably the best recommendation for that junker. The bad work trucks were the worst, I'll take the MS3 with Potenzas any day over those.

Also, to the Kindersley man, I'm from the City that Rhymes with Fun.

Uhh, maybe I was being to subtle.

YES I HAVE.

My entire driving life was spent behind the wheel of a non-DSC equipped car.

please see my previous post on impressions on driving such vehicles in similar conditions.

maybe you should reread the question that was asked. i understand that you've driven non-DSC cars as i did read the post. none of the vehicles you posted have summer only tires. i understand that they had bad tires with poor tread but the compounds they were made out of were not designed exclusively for summer conditions.

so the answer to the question that was asked, based on your post, is no

 

[LukeP]

I don't think the Wrangler's tires were worthy of any sort of classification. I garauntee you half those vehicles had tires that would behave worse than summer tires (Bridgestone Potenzas).

 

[jred321]

tread pattern is only one part of the equation. the stock potenzas aren't great in the rain, as i'm sure is the same for your worn down tread crappy tires. what your worn down tires had that summer tires do not have is a softer tread in cold weather. the summer tires, in combination with not shedding water/snow all that well though probably having a better tread pattern than a bald tire, ride on top of the little bumps in the road because they are hard. your worn out tires will conform to the tiny bumps in the road giving you a better contact patch because they are softer.

so while it appears to you that the only change that was made between your previous cars and this is the DSC in fact there were two changes that were made. saying your car acted differently than cars past solely because of one of those factors isn't possible. at best you can say DSC in combination with summer only tires on ice is unsafe which everyone knows already

 

[ecniemann]

That sucks man! Insurance won't pay? What do you have to do, just take the thousands of dollars in loss? Did you have to get lawyers involved? Yikes. At least you walked away. I guess there's so many ways for lawyers to blame you on the failure of the ABS System that you're stuck.

Yeah those summer tires on the MS3 are holarious on ice. I'm certainly not going to recommend anyone keep them on longer than they should. I haven't had too many traction problems in -10C on dry pavement though. The tires are a little slipperier, they feel like they have that 'brand new tire' slickness to them, spinning at high torque easily and such. If I put winter tires on right now though, in the freak warm weather we're experiencing right now, I'm afraid I'd scrub the siping right off with the torque this thing puts down, even at partial throttle.

Oh, that was not me. I linked it here as I thought it was relevant to the discussion at hand. The OP in that thread was racing and crashed, ultimately due to irregularly worn pads, but apparently how the computer system responded to the wear also had a part in that accident as well, according to the OP. Most insurance will not cover racing unless specifically specified, usually a separate policy I believe, so he was at a total loss, but he knew the risks involved. Just read the posts in that thread by the OP and you will get the idea.

 

[jred321]

Most insurance will not cover racing unless specifically specified

racing yes. just driving on a track quickly is not considered racing. so any HPDE or autocross event could be covered depending on the policy as long as it wasn't a wheel to wheel competition. i read an article recently that insurance companies were starting to close this loophole but currently many still have the loophole open. i guess his company didn't still have it opened or he just didn't pursue it enough since i'm sure the ins co's initial reaction was deny but a lawyer reading the policy could have changed their mind

 

[ZyrehT]

If you think your a winter god on summer tires you deserve what you get.

 

[nhluhr]

such an insightful and worthwhile bump.

 

[ZyrehT]

such an insightful and worthwhile bump.

such a useless bump.

 

[zoomdoom]

I fear driving in the rain with stock tires lol Made it through last ohio winter with stock tires I about had multiple heart attacks and actually did a few 180's. Glad I got winter ice tires on steelies from tire rack this wee. Stock = Only good for a sunny summer day.

 

[ZyrehT]

I fear driving in the rain with stock tires lol Made it through last ohio winter with stock tires I about had multiple heart attacks and actually did a few 180's. Glad I got winter ice tires on steelies from tire rack this wee. Stock = Only good for a sunny summer day.

Winter tires give you low temp and snow shedding. All summer tires are designed to shed water. The only ones that don't are a dry track tire.

 

[nhluhr]

Winter tires give you low temp and snow shedding. All summer tires are designed to shed water. The only ones that don't are a dry track tire.

Although, unequivocally, some high performance summer tires (Potenza RE-01R) don't shed water as well as others (RE050A-PP, RE760 Sport, etc)...

Nonetheless, I think the stock tires do pretty damn well in the rain.

 

[60181]

Bottom line is if you use the summer tires in those conditions, the car is not at fault. Michilen Tires said it best...."because so much is riding on your tires"

The ECS and TCS systems rely on having the correct tire/situation matchup.

My advice..switch to the right tires and let ECS do it's job. You can be as good as you want, but you can't apply braking to just one or two tires, the car can.

We have a group of folks here locally who set up a snow-course/track during the winter months and the nanny systems help considerably. We do it more for fun than competition, so my point is, get to know the car once you are properly equipped. It will just likely save your life.

 

[ZyrehT]

Funny that you're the only person this happens to and suddenly it's a problem with the car. Driver error, plain and simple.