Why you prefer NA over Boost...
- Thread starter Gen1GT
- Start date
yeah but your setup is tuned better than some peoples...
On the subject of NA tuning i find it to be a great challenge. Especially on the protege. I bought the car as a decent base on which to build a mild engine buildup. Although the FS doesnt have as much potential as a honda per-se it still can post good numbers. Everyone seems to forget about the world challenge protege's that were NA. And i think turbo's are cheating in a way too but not for the same reason. I have learned so much about engine's and modifying by working on my car and exploring options ...whereas with a turbo its a fairly starightforward install and the concept is also simple. u can literally bolt on 60whp... thats fun but also doesnt involve much learning, thinking, developing as an NA setup. Also NA setups are more varied....they are almost unique to each owner. With a bolt on turbo your options regarding kits are limited so the uniqueness factor is different. I also dont believe the FS can handle being aftermarket boosted for years or tens of thousands of miles, especially if i had it.
On the subject of NA tuning i find it to be a great challenge. Especially on the protege. I bought the car as a decent base on which to build a mild engine buildup. Although the FS doesnt have as much potential as a honda per-se it still can post good numbers. Everyone seems to forget about the world challenge protege's that were NA. And i think turbo's are cheating in a way too but not for the same reason. I have learned so much about engine's and modifying by working on my car and exploring options ...whereas with a turbo its a fairly starightforward install and the concept is also simple. u can literally bolt on 60whp... thats fun but also doesnt involve much learning, thinking, developing as an NA setup. Also NA setups are more varied....they are almost unique to each owner. With a bolt on turbo your options regarding kits are limited so the uniqueness factor is different. I also dont believe the FS can handle being aftermarket boosted for years or tens of thousands of miles, especially if i had it.
if your talking about a well-bred FS-DE for N/A your in the wrong game. I'm an N/A freak..But the mazda motor is the wrong one for it..There are far better motors to pursue an N/A quest on. Like a honda. Hate al you want. N/A honda's are sick. Boost isn't cheating..It's just another method to achieve a performance goal..rant rant rant..Cars are fun no matter what approach you take.
i like n/a cause most ppl go for turbos and i am the type to try diffrent stuff and go the harder way (n/a) plus ill get to work on my car more 
and if i got a turbo umm install in like 1 day and to work on my car to go faster turn the nob on the boost contoler. but i love the BOV thoe but dammit i love the bov 
and if i got a turbo umm install in like 1 day and to work on my car to go faster turn the nob on the boost contoler. but i love the BOV thoe but dammit i love the bov Sushi-Monster
Sparco Freak!
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- Titanium Grey 2003.5 MazdaSpeed Protege
For the NA people, I hate to admit it, but Honda engines are almost built bullet proof... with VTech, its something that most NA people crave. If your in the quest for NA, you might was well hit up the 2.3L 160HP engine from Mazda... I haven't read too much on it, but already that looks like a genuwine sleeper... If I'm not wrong, it does have a form of VTech correct?SpicyMchaggis said:
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
V-TEC has nothing to do with why Honda engines are good for NA builds...the only reason V-TEC was ever used on the street was simply to create "adequate" lowend torque for such a small displacement engine...If a B16 DOHC V-TEC was only using the big cam lobes...It would make just as much peak HP, but would make next to no torque...The V-TEC system is there only to allow a swich over, and make an engine have the best of both worlds for the most part...although they never really got the torque thing nailed perfectly...But with a 1.6L engine, you can't have both without a timing system like that...its either high rpm power, no lowend torque...Or a little lowend torque...and no high rpm power...
But Honda engine's usually have much higher rod ratio's than we do...and therefor fundamentally lack lowend torque, but have lower pistons speeds per given rpm...which translates into an excellent high rpm breathing engine...That is why they are great for NA, and the rod ratio's are high enough to tolerate 1000rpm or so more than what they come stock...
So to break it down generally...A K20 at 8,000 rpm has pistons moving up and down significantly slower than our FS at 8,000 grand...The FS's move so damn fast it leaves little time to pull air in effectively...Overall making the entrie build take a lot of research...
You can have a 100% cooler NA engine out of the FS than you ever could with variable valve timing though...With some long duration cams, and very high compression...The FS at idle would be amazing...It would lump along, and sound all poppy...which makes it awesome...Our rod ratio's will make sure we will almost always, except in the most extreme NA builds, have lowend torque...So the FS can get away without a VTEC type system, and only run on big cams...
But Honda engine's usually have much higher rod ratio's than we do...and therefor fundamentally lack lowend torque, but have lower pistons speeds per given rpm...which translates into an excellent high rpm breathing engine...That is why they are great for NA, and the rod ratio's are high enough to tolerate 1000rpm or so more than what they come stock...
So to break it down generally...A K20 at 8,000 rpm has pistons moving up and down significantly slower than our FS at 8,000 grand...The FS's move so damn fast it leaves little time to pull air in effectively...Overall making the entrie build take a lot of research...
You can have a 100% cooler NA engine out of the FS than you ever could with variable valve timing though...With some long duration cams, and very high compression...The FS at idle would be amazing...It would lump along, and sound all poppy...which makes it awesome...Our rod ratio's will make sure we will almost always, except in the most extreme NA builds, have lowend torque...So the FS can get away without a VTEC type system, and only run on big cams...
Ya, the new L-series do have variable valve timing. So does the NB chassis Miata. I'd be able to use that on my car if I wanted. (what you have to remember about VTEC, is that it doesn't create more power up top like people think it does. It just allows Honda to use an ultra small low-rpm cam lobe keep the engine efficient at low rpm. When you're going for all out power, you only want the big cams. First thing a road racer does with an ITR is lose the VTEC system)
Spicey, you're right. The FS AND the BP are crap for NA, although the BP was a bit more engineered, and the heads aren't that bad. But that's just the point. Take an engine what WASN'T designed for high RPM, high hp without forced induction, MAKE it more powerful, and be happy. It's the challenge that's so much fun.
I fully agree with Install. I consider turbo cheating. I could make 300 reliable wheel hp for my BP for $5000, or I can spend $10,000 and get 170. I'm choosing the latter BECAUSE it's harder. I have no respect for a turbo car, because the guy driving it probably had nothing to do with engineering it, buidling it, fabricating it or tuning it. Us NA guys have to use custom parts, custom machine work, ingenuitive problem solving thrown in with a bit of luck. One of the Miata guys tried 6 different cams before settling on his Web Cams. One guy is getting 180whp in his BP, and says to get that extra 5-10whp, he'll have to spend another $5000. We do it because it's hard, not because it's easy. I have infinite amount more respect for a guy who got 30% more power naturally aspirated, than 50% by turbo.
How about this. Mazdaspeeds dyno around 150-155 at the wheels. What cammands more respect, a 1.8NA getting 170whp, or a turbocharged 2.0 getting 155whp?
Spicey, you're right. The FS AND the BP are crap for NA, although the BP was a bit more engineered, and the heads aren't that bad. But that's just the point. Take an engine what WASN'T designed for high RPM, high hp without forced induction, MAKE it more powerful, and be happy. It's the challenge that's so much fun.
I fully agree with Install. I consider turbo cheating. I could make 300 reliable wheel hp for my BP for $5000, or I can spend $10,000 and get 170. I'm choosing the latter BECAUSE it's harder. I have no respect for a turbo car, because the guy driving it probably had nothing to do with engineering it, buidling it, fabricating it or tuning it. Us NA guys have to use custom parts, custom machine work, ingenuitive problem solving thrown in with a bit of luck. One of the Miata guys tried 6 different cams before settling on his Web Cams. One guy is getting 180whp in his BP, and says to get that extra 5-10whp, he'll have to spend another $5000. We do it because it's hard, not because it's easy. I have infinite amount more respect for a guy who got 30% more power naturally aspirated, than 50% by turbo.
How about this. Mazdaspeeds dyno around 150-155 at the wheels. What cammands more respect, a 1.8NA getting 170whp, or a turbocharged 2.0 getting 155whp?
At the moment, I'm back and forth between N/A and boost..I'm tired of getting beat by MSP's on the highway and not being able to keep up with the STi crew. I don't street race, but I do like to have fun with others on the highway..Its just depressing knowing that i've spent so much time, and potentially about to spend 10x more time to create about 20 more whp..Maybe. Who knows with boost. I can't do anything I want until I get some more money though. I don't want to settle on a damn SRT-4 or WRX just because I don't want to put the time into the DX..I've gone too far for that now. As it sits I need roughly 11,000$ to achieve what I want. I've tallied this so many times its getting ridiculous. If you need me, I'll be over at citgo buying some more powerball tickets. -Kyle
DooMer_MP3
Member
I think a problem we have here with the FS-DE for an NA build, is that nobody has actually tried tuning an NA application yet. Well, at least nobody who is just trying to add a little power (the hobbyist).
If I do go with the I/H/E/Cams, MPI tuner, maybe I'll be able to achieve 30-40HP more. And if not, I'll save up a little more, and buy some HC pistons, and further tune it.
Chris
If I do go with the I/H/E/Cams, MPI tuner, maybe I'll be able to achieve 30-40HP more. And if not, I'll save up a little more, and buy some HC pistons, and further tune it.
Chris
yea turbo is the cheapest way to get power to tell you the truth. i mean with this motor get it P&P everything and put in some 11:1 pistons (which then youll need stand alone) 11:1 is the highest you can go. larger cams and some specially designed cam gears and you MAY havent something but it will be even more unrealiable then turbo get worse mpg. and be even worse at daily driving... boost it all that is good...SpicyMchaggis said:
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Why is 11:1 the highest you can go????
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
I am interested in your data Corwin...I already have 12.1:1 pistons in an MP3 engine...and it has not run yet...I have never heard anything of getting best top end, low end, middle and drivability with 11:1...The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed...Thats about it...You have to figure temp increases, and upgrade the cooling system if necessary top keep detonation at bay...But 12:1 is nothing outragous...M3's run 11.7:1 bone stock...
The cam's are what are going to hurt my streetability if any...I have seen plenty of engine's running north of 13:1 on the street, with only minor cold start problems...
The cam's are what are going to hurt my streetability if any...I have seen plenty of engine's running north of 13:1 on the street, with only minor cold start problems...
Miata 10:1 pistons are $78 each CDN. Ring kit is $120, Gasket is $50, decking the block, $150, CCing chambers, free. Unless material has to be added, or head shaved.SenorCorwin said:
An FS could run 12, or even 13:1 CR. 94 octane, complete ignition control, slightly rich, clean chambers, lumpy cams. Wouldn't be a problem at all. Japanese 4 cyl engines are capable of running much more compression than old V8 engines. The 13:1 with racing gas only applies to them, not us.
Installshield 2
Gothenburg Superiority
Yes indeed...you can basically run it until you start nailing the valves (at which point the lobe specs on the cams would need to be altered to allow the engine to turnover...and then you are no longer in the battle for power)...as long as you have a standalone with full control...
i did it with a local shop as in data i meant money and cost compared to cost of turbo and what you get out of the car. What i meant about best of top end and all that s*** was like the compromise of everything is 11:1 or so say the guy at shop who had prob one of the earliest turbo p5s "The higher the CR, the better the tuning is needed..." biggest issue right here the AEM is a joke and ive said since the beginning i know there will be things in NOV of this year that will be more solid and affordable. and yea 12:1 anit much but i think you think this engine to be more bullet proof then it is.
