Volkswagen Ordered To Recall 500K Vehicles Over Its Own Malicious Programming

[inlinev]

Sorry, but as an owner that's been following this closely and knows the hardware, the LA Times is full of crap. The 2016s already have a urea scrubbing system (just like every non-VW diesel that's meeting US emissions specs without problems), and fixing them is going to involve a software flash to make them use exhaust fluid more liberally. Same for the 2015s, which they're going to have to fix anyway. The 2009-2014s are trickier because they almost certainly need a hardware change or a massive detune.

It wasn't the LA times that withdrew VW's 2016 2.0 TDI, it was VW...

Update: The EPA issued a statement saying, "Today Volkswagen withdrew their certification application for 2016 vehicle models that use the 2.0L diesel engine including the AUDI: A3 VOLKSWAGEN: BEETLE, BEETLE CONVERTIBLE, GOLF, GOLF SPORTWAGEN, JETTA, PASSAT models."

 

[wiley264]

It wasn't the LA times that withdrew VW's 2016 2.0 TDI, it was VW...

Update: The EPA issued a statement saying, "Today Volkswagen withdrew their certification application for 2016 vehicle models that use the 2.0L diesel engine including the AUDI: A3 VOLKSWAGEN: BEETLE, BEETLE CONVERTIBLE, GOLF, GOLF SPORTWAGEN, JETTA, PASSAT models."

Yes, VW withdrew the EPA applications. The LA Times somehow turned that into the doomsday headline "VW CANCELS 2016 DIESEL LINE-UP" instead of the more accurate "VW Delays 2016 Diesel Line-Up Until Emissions Fix Can Be Applied."

The cars are still sitting in port, and they're not going anywhere. Realistically, they can't - only the North American VW diesels have urea scrubbers anyway, so they can't just ship them somewhere else and sell them. They'd have to go through the same regulatory hoops elsewhere that they face here.

 

[MikeM.]

(also, I love how the second paragraph of USA Today actually says exactly the opposite of their headline)

1. Top exec warns crisis could kill company.
2. He believes they can weather the storm.


I don't see the contradiction you mention. Logic 101. Maybe 10% chance of #1, 90% chance of #2.

 

[wiley264]

1. Top exec warns crisis could kill company.
2. He believes they can weather the storm.


I don't see the contradiction you mention. Logic 101. Maybe 10% chance of #1, 90% chance of #2.

There is just enough truth for the headline not to be libelous, but not enough for it not to be disingenuous. I hold press sources to a higher standard than this because this sort of behavior disgusts me.

 

[CX-5um]

Sorry, but as an owner that's been following this closely and knows the hardware, the LA Times is full of crap. The 2016s already have a urea scrubbing system (just like every non-VW diesel that's meeting US emissions specs without problems), and fixing them is going to involve a software flash to make them use exhaust fluid more liberally. Same for the 2015s, which they're going to have to fix anyway. The 2009-2014s are trickier because they almost certainly need a hardware change or a massive detune.

Reflashing the 2016s means VW's existing certification requests are no longer valid. They will reapply once the issue is sorted out and they can present the final car they intend to sell for EPA testing.

(also, I love how the second paragraph of USA Today actually says exactly the opposite of their headline)

This isn't the end of VW. It probably isn't even the end of VW's attempts to sell diesels in America, although it will certainly be a massive setback.

I think had VW properly equipped their affected TDI accordingly they would've came out ahead vs paying fines, losing customers, and decreasing company stock.

That said as a previous consumer of VW products, I'f I were to seriously consider getting a VW I'd opt for the 1.8L turbo gas model instead of a TDI (once available for purchase). For example why would I get a Golf TDI when I could get a Golf 1.8L gas turbo? The 1.8L model is faster and with cheaper up front costs. The TDI model is at least 1 second slower to 60 than the 1.8l gas model to 60. The gap widens as speed increases because TDI's have limited top end power because it redlines to 5,000 rpm. The true cost of ownership should be lower for the gas model too. You can negotiate pricing even more so now considering TDI's cannot be sold currently and VW dealers are hurting for sales. Your talking about a couple thousand premium for the TDI model not to mention higher diesel prices so it'll take a good number of years to realize savings over the 1.8L turbo gas model which by the way accepts 87 octane and gets 37 mpg highway. Should the new TDI models be upgraded accordingly than the increased cost gets passed to the consumer.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

German Prosecutors Conduct Searches in VW Emissions Probe

German prosecutors carried out searches Thursday in connection with their investigation of the Volkswagen emissions scandal, seeking material that would help clarify who was responsible for the cheating.

The raids were carried out in Wolfsburg, where VW has its headquarters, and at other locations, prosecutors in nearby Braunschweig said in a statement.

They said the aim of the searches was to "secure documents and data storage devices" that could identify those involved in the alleged manipulation and explain how it was carried out.


Fallout from the Volkswagen scandal is hitting consumers and the courts

Rival automakers, with their sights set on benefitting from VW’s troubles, have begun to offer special financial incentives to shoppers willing to switch brands. In the U.S., meanwhile, the value of diesel-powered models made by VW and its Audi luxury brand has taken a hit.

Mueller told a German newspaper that VW faces “not three, but thousands” of potential solutions for fixing cars because of the mix of engine calibrations and regulatory differences across different markets.

Warburg Research estimates that lost revenue and expenses, including damaged image, could cost VW $39 billion – roughly equal to two-thirds of its current market capitalization.

Diesel: How it changed Europe and how Europe might change back

Volkswagen dealer: Biggest fraud I have ever seen

VW Executive: Any Fix for Car Owners Could Take Year or More

Horn said the company does not yet have an approved recall plan for cars that have the defeat device, and that any fix for customers could take "one or two years" to carry out. Each of the nearly half million cars will require five hours to 10 hours of work, a potentially significant burden on dealers.

 

[craigo]

Volkswagen dealer: Biggest fraud I have ever seen

I have a little schadenfreude about a car dealer being outraged about being sold on some lies

 

[CX-SV]

Yes and VW was slipping in US before this fraud was announced...

 

[wiley264]

I think had VW properly equipped their affected TDI accordingly they would've came out ahead vs paying fines, losing customers, and decreasing company stock.

Certainly. In fairness, they did equip the EA288s from 2015 on with the proper equipment. It's still unclear why those engines still had the test-cheating software even though it was no longer necessary.

That said as a previous consumer of VW products, I'f I were to seriously consider getting a VW I'd opt for the 1.8L turbo gas model instead of a TDI (once available for purchase). For example why would I get a Golf TDI when I could get a Golf 1.8L gas turbo? The 1.8L model is faster and with cheaper up front costs. The TDI model is at least 1 second slower to 60 than the 1.8l gas model to 60. The gap widens as speed increases because TDI's have limited top end power because it redlines to 5,000 rpm. The true cost of ownership should be lower for the gas model too. You can negotiate pricing even more so now considering TDI's cannot be sold currently and VW dealers are hurting for sales. Your talking about a couple thousand premium for the TDI model not to mention higher diesel prices so it'll take a good number of years to realize savings over the 1.8L turbo gas model which by the way accepts 87 octane and gets 37 mpg highway. Should the new TDI models be upgraded accordingly than the increased cost gets passed to the consumer.

Yes, that's the current state, but the 1.8L was only introduced in the 2015 models. For my car in particular (a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI), the choice was between the 2.0L TDI diesel and a 2.5L NA. The gasoline engine was a bit faster than the diesel, but it had garbage fuel economy and nearly every reviewer hated it because of the poor throttle response, attached poor-shifting automatic, and nasty exhaust note.

 

[MikeM.]

There is just enough truth for the headline not to be libelous, but not enough for it not to be disingenuous. I hold press sources to a higher standard than this because this sort of behavior disgusts me.

This is nothing more than VW's top exec begging for mercy, asking those with power not to be too harsh or VW could go out of business.

Why is it disgusting when the media reports his pleas? Should the media be the judge and censor such extreme statements (or do you not believe the top VW exec implied that, if the storm is too harsh, it could do them in)?

(dunno)

 

[MikeM.]

Certainly. In fairness, they did equip the EA288s from 2015 on with the proper equipment. It's still unclear why those engines still had the test-cheating software even though it was no longer necessary.

My guess: VW was retaining the ability to cheat in the future. Also, they didn't want to make a massive change to the software that would be obvious to anyone who cracked the security and did a data dump to compare code from different model years.

Yes, that's the current state, but the 1.8L was only introduced in the 2015 models. For my car in particular (a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI), the choice was between the 2.0L TDI diesel and a 2.5L NA. The gasoline engine was a bit faster than the diesel, but it had garbage fuel economy and nearly every reviewer hated it because of the poor throttle response, attached poor-shifting automatic, and nasty exhaust note.

Man! Any auto critic who complained about the power, acceleration OR the exhaust note of either the gasser or the diesel, never drove an early (non-TDI) VW diesel Rabbit (early Golf). Every day after high-school (1979-80) I would show up to my delivery job and drive one of those for 1.5-2 hours. I cannot over-exaggerate just how gutless it was. You would be shocked. Every shift, even 1st gear, would be wrapped out to near redline, high rpm's didn't improve acceleration much being a diesel and all, but it was necessary just to try to keep up with the slow moving cars in front. Even then, by second gear most often they would pull away. I'm not kidding. Even in 1st and 2nd gears. Passing was simply not an option, no matter how slow the person in front was going. And it sounded like a bucket of bolts (even though it was in perfect condition and received regular maintenance). Big clouds of black smoke would spew out the tailpipe. It stunk. On the bright side, it did manage about 50 mpg. It was in it's sweet spot maintaining a steady speed on a level road between 25-50 mph. Maintaining a steady speed while climbing any hill of consequence was literally impossible, even with the pedal floored and in the proper gear (it was 4 on the floor).

How anyone could complain about these modern cars boggles my mind. Night and day difference. Not even comparable.

 

[Kedis82ZE8]

That sounds about like the performance of an '83 Toyota 2WD diesel truck I drove on a job I had as a kid. I think it had around 62HP and 93 lb-ft torque. It got in the 40-45 MPG range. I can't even imagine performance if that thing had a slushbox

 

[wiley264]

This is nothing more than VW's top exec begging for mercy, asking those with power not to be too harsh or VW could go out of business.

Why is it disgusting when the media reports his pleas? Should the media be the judge and censor such extreme statements (or do you not believe the top VW exec implied that, if the storm is too harsh, it could do them in)?

(dunno)

VW will not go out of business. They are the world's largest automaker by volume, they deal with massive amounts of revenue, and the German State of Lower Saxony simply won't let that happen.

In a worst case scenario, VW gets a bailout from the German government. I'm generally opposed to that sort of thing, but in this case, it makes sense. VW shipped a generation of bad engines, then got the situation under control such that their current lineup is actually quite solid. If VW couldn't solve this problem without financial assistance, they could probably even solicit private investors (and avoid government intervention completely) because it's almost certain that they will return to a profitable state when the smoke clears.

 

[wiley264]

Man! Any auto critic who complained about the power, acceleration OR the exhaust note of either the gasser or the diesel, never drove an early (non-TDI) VW diesel Rabbit (early Golf). Every day after high-school (1979-80) I would show up to my delivery job and drive one of those for 1.5-2 hours. I cannot over-exaggerate just how gutless it was. You would be shocked. Every shift, even 1st gear, would be wrapped out to near redline, high rpm's didn't improve acceleration much being a diesel and all, but it was necessary just to try to keep up with the slow moving cars in front. Even then, by second gear most often they would pull away. I'm not kidding. Even in 1st and 2nd gears. Passing was simply not an option, no matter how slow the person in front was going. And it sounded like a bucket of bolts (even though it was in perfect condition and received regular maintenance). Big clouds of black smoke would spew out the tailpipe. It stunk. On the bright side, it did manage about 50 mpg. It was in it's sweet spot maintaining a steady speed on a level road between 25-50 mph. Maintaining a steady speed while climbing any hill of consequence was literally impossible, even with the pedal floored and in the proper gear (it was 4 on the floor).

How anyone could complain about these modern cars boggles my mind. Night and day difference. Not even comparable.

While I certainly agree that things have moved forward, my point ultimately was that the choice of the TDI over the 2.5 was very easy in that generation. VW disclosed during the launch of its successor that 80% of Jetta Sportwagens sold were diesels, despite the fact that there were three gas trimlines (S, SE, SEL) but only one diesel trimline.

 

[CX-SV]

VW will be a seriously weakened company for several years. It's balance sheet had more debt before the crisis than most automakers, and now the cost to borrow just went up for them. They were already losing market share in US before the crisis. VW's profit margins weren't that impressive before the crisis and it will be a while before they return to profitability. The possibility of a government bailout will keep them from going bankrupt. The $7 billion dollar provision booked in Q3 for potential liabilities is a joke and inadequate. Expect another huge provision to be booked in by end of fiscal year, Q4 2015.

Since this is a Mazda forum, most here can be thankful that we don't own any VW, especially a 2009-2015 TDI. There are several better automakers to do business with, including Mazda.

 

[MikeM.]

The $7 billion dollar provision booked in Q3 for potential liabilities is a joke and inadequate. Expect another huge provision to be booked in by end of fiscal year, Q4 2015.

Totally agree this will only get bigger. The questions are, "How many more shoes are there to drop, when will they drop, and what will they be?"

Then, a year or more down the road, when things look helpless and confidence is non-existent, VW will re-emerge and it will be business as usual. Until then, shorting VW stock at 126.40 (Euro) is probably not a bad idea if you can afford to wait this out.

 

[MikeM.]

VW will not go out of business. They are the world's largest automaker by volume, they deal with massive amounts of revenue, and the German State of Lower Saxony simply won't let that happen.

In a worst case scenario, VW gets a bailout from the German government.

You seem to be arguing that the VW CEO who implied they could go out of business is full of s***.

But your original complaint was with the "disgusting" media for reporting what the VW CEO said.

Which is it?

 

[Unobtanium]

Nevermind all this noise. I need to stock up on pre-ban VW's!

 

[Chris_Top_Her]

Hell yea.. get an awd tdi and tune it

 

[wiley264]

You seem to be arguing that the VW CEO who implied they could go out of business is full of s***.

But your original complaint was with the "disgusting" media for reporting what the VW CEO said.

Which is it?

Firstly, he's not the CEO. He's the soon-to-be-appointed chairman of the board and former CFO. The CEO has spent the last few days reassuring the workers that while VW needs to massively cut their R&D budget to deal with more immediate concerns, they're going to minimize layoffs as much as possible. You know, because they'll still be a company and all that.

What disgusts me is that the soon-to-be-appointed chairman described the crisis as threatening the existence of the company in one sentence, then spent the rest of the time talking about how they're addressing it. The USA Today article implies the opposite.