Turbo Lag

turboge said:
At 5000+ miles now, and I notice the stumble every time. It occurs between 3000-4500rpm. This turbo is very hesitant below 3000rpm, and doesn't completely spool tilll approximately 5000.

From my mazda turbo engine tuning experience I believe that it is all related to the ECU. Either the car is poorly programmed to handle boost in those RPM ranges, or the knock sensor (if even equipped) is wigging out. Other things lead me to believe that the boost solenoid may be incorrectly programmed as well, and that it may be "cycling" its signal and creating some kind of boost spike. A boost gauge is not on the car yet so I can't tell on that one.

Either way, this is not normal of a "stock" turbo'd car. Also, this is a rather small ball bearing turbo, I would expect full boost to be delivered by 3000rpm and held smoothly from then on. I've tuned on larger ball bearing turbo's and have had no problems with lag like this.

Also, there is a way to cure some lag. Free up the intake, and the exhaust. The free'r the turbo can flow the quicker it will spin for you. I've seen drops of nearly 1000rpm for complete spoolup on GT-R turbo's with intake and exhaust mods. We'll be modding soon to find out.

Good info! Thanks Braden. It isn't really consistent on mine, but happens once in awhile. I will be interested to see your later posts regarding this. And; I do want a boost gauge. Are they a pain to install? And; which do you recommend? Thanks!

Cheers!
(drinks)
 
I tend to use Autometer Boost gauges. They are so simple to install even a mouse could do it. Basically you position your gauge, run nylon tubing through the firewall..... then T into a vacuum line that is near the intake manifold or off the intake manifold, secure all connections and you're done.

Placing it closer to the turbo (i.e. off the compressor outlet) will give you a boost number that is higher than that after the intercooler, where a pressure drop will show. I like to measure at the manifold to see what is actually entering the engine.

You can get some new autometers for like $50 from most places. I think the phantom will suit the MSP best.

-Braden
 
turboge said:
I tend to use Autometer Boost gauges. They are so simple to install even a mouse could do it. Basically you position your gauge, run nylon tubing through the firewall..... then T into a vacuum line that is near the intake manifold or off the intake manifold, secure all connections and you're done.

Placing it closer to the turbo (i.e. off the compressor outlet) will give you a boost number that is higher than that after the intercooler, where a pressure drop will show. I like to measure at the manifold to see what is actually entering the engine.

You can get some new autometers for like $50 from most places. I think the phantom will suit the MSP best.

-Braden

I know I want a boost gauge that matches the MAZDASPEED 'red' lighted gauges, if possible. It's a not a show stopper, but it looks like the Autometer is black numbered.

Cheers!
(drinks)
 
Thought I'd bring this thread back..Are you guys still noticing these problems with 'hiccuping/hesitation' at certain rpm's, etc..? Has anyone figured out if this is just turbo lag or something else? I notice it usually when I first start driving and I have 3000+ miles on my MSP so I think its pretty well broken in...Should I even bother trying to talk to the dealer about this problem?

Thanks
 
Anyone else that has an MSP notice how it falls on its face under medium acceleration at about 3K rpm ? Is this the infamous turbo lag ? If so, has anyone had the problem corrected ? I'm afraid to take the car back to the dealer yet and have the monkey's there, try and tell me it needed new mufler bearings .. lol. It also seems that sometimes the turbo wont even kick in through 1st gear. Lemme know please.

it sounds like something is wrong.. I would take it to the dealer and have them look at it..
Dude I have been trippin thinking this was a phantom problem but the turbo does fall flat in 2nd gear, but its only some times. I doint recall having problems in any other gear but sometimes it hiccups in 2nd between 3500 and 4000 and sometimes it feels like the turbo isnt kicking in at all. I know its not turbo lag it has to be something else. Crappy thing is it only happens sometimes, so I know when I take it to Mazda it will be the time it choses not to. Oh what to do....

Wow..I just made a thread the other day asking what kind of problems that mazdaspeed folks were experiencing.. I sold a car to a customre and now he is really upset about the performance. His car is doing the same thing. The service department has not been able to figure it out. We are having a mazda engineer come down and take a look at his car. I think there may be something wrong with the ecu. maybe it was programed incorrectly.
This problem might become some sorta of recall on the msp.
redmption..how many miles do you have on your car.. And how were then driven?
 
Are you saying it only happens when you first get in the car? And when she warms up it doesn't
The car I am talking about is completely random.

Its really werid. Something I have never sen before.
 
I've noticed the power seems to hesitate depending on how much throttle I've giving it.
If I have the pedal mashed to the floor, it pulls just fine, but if I have it around 75% down, it's almost like the engine is hiccuping.
It's very frustrating.
 
interesting. One way to solve it though....FLOOR IT! :)

Honestly, the last time I took one out, she was fine, no hiccup at all unless I punched the throttle, got off it quicky, and puched it again all within 2-3 seconds. There's just no real reason to do this while driving but I thought i'd try it. Most 4 cyls seem to do it anyhow.
 
Last edited:
I have 1200 miles on mine and it does the same exact thing at about 3500rpms at partial thottle. I thought it was just a "turbo" characteristic because I never owner at turbocharged car before. I am used to superchargers. Definitely a hiccup in power at 3500rpm .
 
the car I am having problems with this does it at 100% throttle as well.

Maybe it starts out at only 75% and then contiunues to get worse
 
Smooveness Incarnate

Mine runs great. Rev to 2200-2500 RPM and then slip the clutch out while pressing down the gas and it feels like two pit bulls are vying for control of my arms.
In short no lag, no flat face-ness, no problem.

Good luck with your repair.
 
rev it up to 4500 to 5000k and drop the clutch...hehehe fun stuff
give it a try...

Trust me..nothing will break


(I'm just mad because some sentra wanted to race so I launched it and lifted the clutch too fast breaking the rear differential:( But I still beat him with 3 wheel drive:) )
 
there shouldnt be Much lag on this GT25 if any at all. this thing should spool fast. and Branden is right, there are ways to "correct" the lag of turbos: free up the intake and exhaust tract, port/gasket match the manifold and O2 housing/turbine elbow. the problem is that the American driving public wants a car that will get up and go when you step on the gas; instant torque. thats just one thing that is not a trait of a turbocharger, it will always have some degree of lag. it can be minimized by using a small AR ratio turbine housing and higher compression to placate the driving public. this is bad for us Tuners though. it puts a limit on how much boost we can safely run. And i dont know about you, but i want to run 93 octane all the time, which really will limite the amoutn of boost.

Anyhow, this problem sounds like its related to the o2 sensor feedback in the ECU. The ECU has two modes of operation for the O2 sensor: open loop and closed loop. Closed loop is what causes the blinky light on your AF guage to swing back and forth, the O2 voltages are cycling. This is when the ECU is using the O2 sensor for feedback and tries to gain a fuel mixture as close to Stoich. as possible for best fuel mileage. The other mode is closed loop, when it Stops cycling back and forth, and the O2 voltage is rather steady. This is when the ECU disregards the O2 sensor feedback, and then begins to run off of preprogrammed fuel maps inside the ECU.

Usually, the change over from Open and closed loop is related to 2 things: Throttle postion and RPM. For instance, on our DSM, anything more than like 50% throttle or somethign liek that, it goes open loop. and anything above 4000 rpm, it goes open loop, regardless of throttle position. So there may be a dead spot or a glitch when the ECU transitions from closed loop to open loop. its probably the reason why some MSP tend to run lean at partial throttle; because the Throttle isnt opend enough to cause the ECU to go open loop, and the ECU is still trying to gain a stoich mixture even though the turbo is creating postive manifold pressure. if this is the case, then you will have quite a bit of part throttle knock and get timing pull. Usually a safe A/F ratio in a turbo application is 12.5:1. Stoich is 14.7:1, or too lean for high load conditions. 11:1 is REally rich, and very safe for a turbo application, but its cooling the EGT's too much and doenst create as much cylinder pressure as it possibly could...so leaning it out a little would create a little more power, at the risk of incresing knock.

so, to sum it up: ECU and O2 sensor problems...i think

Branden feel free to step in
 
psifactor said:

Branden feel free to step in

I'll step in...
In to what? Well that is a different story :D
Thanks for the length of your wind sir...
I saalute U....
(nuts)

Heehee good reaD none the-less DOOD.
 
I'll be working on the ECU problem soon. I am almost certain the programming is thoroughly flawed. There is no need to run 10:1 A/F ratios under such light boost. I've got a portable wideband and still might be able to hop on the dyno soon enough to play around with an S-AFC II and see what kind of numbers we can generate.

The hiccup from what I can tell could be a combination of a leaking Bypass valve or poor programming. If you give the car gas in any gear you can feel it stumbling. The 3500-4500 hiccup is due to air flow, we have solved this with the addition of the Injen intake. A little more playing around and we'll get it working how it should have been.
 
Back