Time for War !!!

[tonkabui]

don't you have to go to military jail and then military court if you choose not to obey a commanding officer or a call to deployment? and isn't military court a little different than civilian court in that you have to prove your innocence? that sucks.

 

[big_ben]

Yep, if you think you know better than everyone else and you decide you won't obey, you go to jail. And you WILL be convicted. As soon as you enlist and make the oath, you give up about half you your rights that are provided by the constitution. Your freedoms of speach are pretty much cut in half. You can't publicly speak negatively about your chain of command. The president is at the top of your chain of command by the way. You do not have the right to a fair trial, you have the right to a military court martial only. The judges are 20+ year service men and women by the way. How do you think they will rule?

I totally agree with all of it though. There has to be discipline in order to make a military as powerful as our work. If someone gives you an order, you don't think about it, you just do it. The ONLY time you are allowed to disobey a direct order is if there is a consesus that the order is unlawful. And then you still have to prove yourself in a court marshal.

 

[mp3boy1984]

I totally agree with Big Ben on this one. And if i was called to war with a draft i know that i would be on that front line fighting for my country. I just don't see how people can be that nieve (or however you spell it) I mean s*** these guys killed thousands of civilians that did not deserve it, and now people want to be like oh well i don't agree with this, they didn't do anything. Hello they attacked us first (and i know that we don't have evidence to proove that iraq is in direct affiliation with them) They still have the ability to do the same exact thing to us again. And then you guys will criticize president Bush for not doing anything. I support president Bush all the way. And I personally feel no sorrow for Saddam, he has had enough time to clean up his act. I hope the son of a b**** pays for his crimes.

 

[TexP5]

Ben...not totally in support of jsgolfer's somewhat extreme viewpoint, BUT your spin on why our parents and grandparents fought World War II is a little off.

WWII was fought to stop big military powers (like Germany then and like us now) from overrunning little piss ant military countries (like Poland then and like Iraq now). Your analogy doesn't work. We're the aggressors here from any angle you want to look at it. I'm not saying that's bad or good, I am saying it's not the way this nation usually behaves. We need to call this what it is, bald faced aggression by the United States.

We were not the aggressors in WWII, nor in fact in any of our previous wars. There was always some action taken by the opposition to subvert another nation's independence. This is a VERY different thing from attacking a nation whose leader acts badly WITHIN his own nation.

This is a new and horrible action we're taking here that leads to a long a slippery slope where any nation can say "Hey, we don't trust your leader. Kick him out or we kill ya!" I support the troops and hope they all get home safely, but this is not like WWII and saying that opposition to this war desecrates their memory shows how little you understand America's previous wars and the VERY different thing that President Bush is about to do. This breaks all US precedent.

And READ this before you flame me. I'm not saying Saddam is a good guy. And I'm not saying we live in a perfect world. I'm not saying there should never be war, and I'm not saying that you're stupid. All I am saying is that we have never before attacked a nation based on a threat, or on alleged human rights grounds within the territory of that nation. Every time we have ever attacked anyone it has been because that nation has undertaken aggressive actions OUTSIDE its borders. Saddam has not done anything recently to warrant a massive invasion. That's the reality here. The President is about to do something unique in US history and we all should be very aware of that.

 

[chuyler1]

What is our goal in this war anyway? other than to find and kill Bin Laden?

It seems clear that we don't want to kill Saddam, we've had plenty of opportunities to do so.

It is predicted that they will all surrender once the fighting begins, so we probably won't kill many of them, meaning this could happen again after we stop occupying the area.

Are we trying to seize the chemical and biological weapons that the inspectors can't seem to find?

Are we trying to flex our super power muscles and play with our war toys?

Has anyone read the book '1984' recently?

 

[nmaino]

TexP5: Once again, we are going to fight Saddam becasue he is in violation of article 1441. The UN will not enforce their own articles, so it is now up to the US and our allies to do such. That is why this conflict is taking place. Saying that we were not the aggressors in any other war is flat-out wrong. We have done many aggressive things to promote war (like cutting off oil to Japan in 1939), so I would rethink that statement.

 

[big_ben]

I'm going to explain a few things to all of you that maybe you didn't know about or have forgotten.

I really don't like argueing with people who don't understand the situation and just argue with little factoids that were spit out of the media. I reasearch very deeply into what is going on so I know more than what the media is reporting.

I'm really pissed off right now, but I'll calm down so I can show you your WRONG statements.

There was always some action taken by the opposition to subvert another nation's independence.

It is really sad that so many people in this country has already forgotten what happened on Sept. 11, 2001. Terrorists attacked the US on US soil.

After Sept. 11, the US declared war on ALL forms of terrorism and ANYONE who supports terrorism. The UN agreed with us, DID THEY NOT!

This is a VERY different thing from attacking a nation whose leader acts badly WITHIN his own nation.

Every time we have ever attacked anyone it has been because that nation has undertaken aggressive actions OUTSIDE its borders.

Again you are forgetting very important facts. Sadam pays $25,000 to the family of suicide bombers who blow themsleves up. Is that not supporting terrorism? Besides that, the US has evidence that Iraq has been aiding Al Queda. I myself do not believe that Iraq had anything to do with Sept. 11, but that doesn't matter. IRAQ SUPPORTS TERRORISM BY PAYING MONEY TO SUICIDE BOMBER'S FAMILIES.That is the only justification we need to bomb the s*** out of them if we see fit.

This is a new and horrible action we're taking here that leads to a long a slippery slope where any nation can say "Hey, we don't trust your leader. Kick him out or we kill ya!"

Are you really so naive that you would think the US would do that. Please don't make stupid assumptions, it makes any arguement you make invalid.

other than to find and kill Bin Laden?

AGAIN, this war is not about Bin Ladin or Saddam. This is about TERRORISM, PERIOD.

Are we trying to flex our super power muscles and play with our war toys?

Yet another ignorant comment that totally undermines anything else you say.

Do none of you understand the grand scheme of things? This war is not about oil, not about avenging Bush Sr., it's not about a direct threat of Iraq to the US. This war is just another step in the war against terrorism. The main reason for this war is to bring democracy to one of the most powerful nations in the middle east. If you all haven't realized this yet, about 90% of all terrorism in the world has roots in the middle east. If the US and it's allies have a strong foothold there, terrorism will be easier to control and to stop. Yes we already have Isreal as a foot hold, but the rest of the middle east hates Isreal, so that negates that. If we get Iraq under our thumb, we control the middle east. This is why so many countries in the middle east doesn't want this to happen. They know that terrorism is their only source of power in the world. If they lose that, they have no power.

And that comes from someone who studied to be an intelligence analist for 6 months in Arizona. So I am pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

 

[MP5Raycer]

you know what nmaino .. you are but 25 years old and every post that has anything to do with war or this topic you have attacked as if you are the military commander in chief himself !!! do us a favor and SHUT THE **** UP ..... I am so sick and tired of you running your mouth telling us what is what ... asif you know everything ... and i realize that opinions are granted to those who wish to offer them .. but do not offer them where they are not needed and or wanted .. this was not a place for debate ..use the other thread on here like you have been doing .. I made this one specifically to avoid you runnin your mouth .. and since you got so much knowledge and pent up anger why dont you do something usefull with it like go over seas and see how acurate you are and see where it gets you other then a 3X6 wooden box. you hear me !

this is like a big pissing contest of who know more .. I mean Big Ben is starting to get in to this and i have seen some of his other stuff on here and he 9 times out of 10 knows his s*** but guys lets not get this into another pissing contest

 

[chuyler1]

Control is an illusion. We will never control them. If we haven't been able to do it in the past 20 years, a 45 minute war isn't going to make it happen.

Bush said so him self that this was going to take time...so why is he rushing into it? Does Saddam have vacation time coming up or something? Or are the presidential elections getting too close and he doesn't have results? And while we sit here pondering the war as we're supposed to, the economy sucks ass!

 

[mp3boy1984]

Big Ben, i couldn't have said it any better myself. I must stress 9-11, people are seeming to forget this ever happened.

 

[big_ben]

He's completely right though. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because it was their only choice. We had cut off all oil shipments to them. If they did not attack, they would have slowly weakened until they were such a weak country that anyone could have invaded them and taken over.

It sounds to me like he is one of the few on this forum that actually know some of their history in what really happened. The japanese didn't attack us because they were these evil people that just wanted to kill Americans. That was the most strategic move in their bag at the time.

In the case of Sept. 11, the US wasn't doing anything. The only thing the US did that was wrong was to have a two faced foreign policy. Which didn't really hurt anyone, all it did was piss people off. We weren't restricting oil shipment to anyone. The only country we had any sanctions against at that time was Iraq. And they weren't the ones that attacked us.

I've got a question for all of you. I want to see if any of you really know why North Korea restarted their nuclear weapons program. Does anyone know why they did this. Was it the US's fault? What did we do, what did they do to start this tension?

 

[mp3boy1984]

chuyler1: Because if Bush waits, then the military will get impatient, and also the U.S. people will start to lose their faith in this. Honestly I don't see why he would wait at all. It has been nearly a year and a half since 9-11, and to be quite honest I would much rather have this taken care of now, rather than wait for them to attack us again.

 

[mp3boy1984]

I am actually rather interested in why N. Korea started up its nuclear program, Big Ben if you know please share....

 

[big_ben]

And while we sit here pondering the war as we're supposed to, the economy sucks ass!

Ok, I'll get into that since you imply that is Bush's fault also. The economy is where it in now for 3 main reasons.

1. It was starting to head in that direction even before we were attacked on Sept. 11. The Dot Com bubble had burst and companies were going under left and right.

2. The terrorist attacks pushed the market over the knife edge that it was tetering on.

3. The terrorist attacks never would have happened if the Clinton administration weren't so anti-military conflict. The Clinton administration ignored several signs of what was going to happen because he didn't want to be known as a president that always used the military at the drop of a hat.

Look where all of this reluctance to use the most powerful military in the world has gotten the US. It has gotten us atacked with over 3000 dead. If you count all the other terrorist attacks on other allied countries, there are way over 4000 dead. Clinton was scared to take a stand. Well guess what, Bush could give a **** what the UN and all the other pussy countries have to say, he is the brave one who is taking a stand.

 

[big_ben]

North Korea

Where did this all start? Well, it certainly didn't start a few months ago. After the Korean War was fought, we had pushed them all the way back to Pyongyang. We decided we had taken enough casualties and wanted to end it. We said that we would split the country at what is now know as the DMZ(de-militarized zone). They said ok. Well, they were behaving well for years until the Clinton presidency. We found out they had an active nuclear weapons program and they were continuously testing missiles and they were slowly progressing to where they were close to having missiles that would reach the US. We didn't like that of course. So we told them we would give them food, oil and money if they would just stop their program. They agreed. We both signed treaties saying that the US would give aid and N.K. would completely stop ALL nuclear programs including nuclear powered electricity programs.

Fast forward to 2000. The military had intelligence reports that N.K. had not stopped it's nuclear program. Clinton knew this and did NOTHING about it besides telling them to stop.

Fast forward to 2002. The US confronts N.K. about their nuclear weapons program, .......AND NORTH KOREA ADMITS IT! They say yes, we have been producing plutonium under your noses this whole time. So the U.S. tells them they had better stop or we will stop giving them aid. They didn't stop. So they were in violation of the treaty that both countries had signed. So the U.S. stopped sending oil, food, and money to N.K.

Fast Forward to early 2003. North Korea gets pissed and kicks out IAEA inspectors because we stopped giving them aid.

So who is in the wrong here, the US? I think not, and the rest of the world agrees. But everyone is afraid to do anything about it.

So again, this problem was caused by Clinton ignoring facts that N.K. had restarted their nuclear weapons programs. Clinton made lots of mistakes and did some very stupid things that are now coming back to bite the US in the ass.

And all of you are blaming Bush for it. I think you all need to do some research and get your facts straight. The only thing bush has done wrong so far in my eyes is to give excessive tax cuts during a time that the US is inevitably going to war and going to be in some type of war for several years. This has sent bad vibes to the stock market and this is why the market hasn't bounced back as strong.

 

[big_ben]

Why is France so against the US right now?

I guess this is a little history lesson for people who are making their comments on what is said the most in the media.

Why is France so hard pressed to avoid this war? It seems like if such a powerful country is against this war, there really must be reasons for it right. So this is why so many people in the US are against it also right. They see this powerful country that is against it, so there must be reasons. I'll give you the reasons, and they might frighten you.

The US trained Iraqi soldiers and sold them weapons at DEEP discounts when they were fighting Iran. Other allied countries were doing the same, so it wasn't just the US that was selling weapons to Iraq, don't think for a minute it was just us.

Well, France continued to sell weapons to Iraq even after the war was over which was fine. You think that probably would have stopped after we went to war with Iraq in the early 90's right? Wrong. France has made LOTS of money from selling weapons and precursors to biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons to Iraq. EVEN AFTER DESERT STORM! They knew that Sadam had used them on his own population and that he was stockpiling themand that Iraq wasn't supposed to have them, but they continued to sell to Iraq. Well, they have denied for years selling Iraq some certain things that we know they sold to Iraq. But we can't prove it.

You might also ask yourself, "why is Iraq letting the French develop oil fields in Iraq?" Why do you think, there was a deal struck with Iraq for weapons supplies of course.

My belief is that France doesn't want the world to know what they have been doing behind closed doors with Iraq. They don't want the world to know what they have been selling to Iraq. They are so frightened because they know we will find everything after we invade Iraq because Iraq keeps VERY good records of everything they do.

 

[BacDoc]

I think all the facts are in...the U.S. is going to war! And as an American you have 2 choices now...supprot your counrty, family, and friends. Or be agaisnt everything this country stands for and the people who died to protect it and make it strong. And don't give me any BS about peace. This is not a perfect world. Even the bible stats that wars will go on. Now swollow your hippie pride and start backing OUR troops. If a weed starts growing in your garden it's not a big deal at first. But eventually that weed begins to overtake your garden and choke out eveything growing there and you can't stop it. But if you pull that weed out soon enough your garden grows on. Saddam needs to be pulled.

 

[MP5Raycer]

Hey big ben .. you are 100% on the money .. is your real name colin Powel or Larry King????? lol .. i deffinatly agree with the N.K. Part that is a bullseye of acuracy

 

[big_ben]

No, I'm not Colin Powell or Larry King, but I pay very close attention to foreign affairs. I rely on the BBC for all my news, they don't have the right or left American slant on their news. If you watch FOX News, you get the extreme right position, if you Watch CNN, you get the middle to left slant, if you get your new from a non-American source, it's usually pretty accurate. The only reason American news services suck so bad is because they over dramatize everything and they leave out certain facts just to get better ratings.

Here are some good sources of facts that you never hear on the news stations.

www.fas.org
www.globalsecurity.org

 

[boostisgood]

Why is France so against the US right now?

I guess this is a little history lesson for people who are making their comments on what is said the most in the media.

Why is France so hard pressed to avoid this war? It seems like if such a powerful country is against this war, there really must be reasons for it right. So this is why so many people in the US are against it also right. They see this powerful country that is against it, so there must be reasons. I'll give you the reasons, and they might frighten you.

The US trained Iraqi soldiers and sold them weapons at DEEP discounts when they were fighting Iran. Other allied countries were doing the same, so it wasn't just the US that was selling weapons to Iraq, don't think for a minute it was just us.

Well, France continued to sell weapons to Iraq even after the war was over which was fine. You think that probably would have stopped after we went to war with Iraq in the early 90's right? Wrong. France has made LOTS of money from selling weapons and precursors to biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons to Iraq. EVEN AFTER DESERT STORM! They knew that Sadam had used them on his own population and that he was stockpiling themand that Iraq wasn't supposed to have them, but they continued to sell to Iraq. Well, they have denied for years selling Iraq some certain things that we know they sold to Iraq. But we can't prove it.

You might also ask yourself, "why is Iraq letting the French develop oil fields in Iraq?" Why do you think, there was a deal struck with Iraq for weapons supplies of course.

My belief is that France doesn't want the world to know what they have been doing behind closed doors with Iraq. They don't want the world to know what they have been selling to Iraq. They are so frightened because they know we will find everything after we invade Iraq because Iraq keeps VERY good records of everything they do.

Big_Ben, you hit the nail on the head with this one. I know its true, for the simple fact, I worked intel for SF while i was stationed at Ft. Bragg. N.C.

And for anyone who will not support OUR TROOPS for doing what is ORDERED (no you dont get a choice to do wtf you want in the military) **** OFF GET THE **** OUTTA MY COUNTRY I, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE SPILLED OUR BLOOD FOR. YOU DO NOT DESERVE THE FREEDOMS WE ARE WILLING TO DIE FOR TO PROTECT FOR YOU. SUCK MY DICK, KISS MY ASS, KEEL OVER AND DIE. DO NOT EVER POST s*** LIKE THAT AGAIN.

(sorry to anyone I offended by my language, but I have my freedom of speech that myself and millions of others have fought and/or died for, and that to many take for granted and dont think about.)

(edit #2: and if you wanna report this to the mods, so be it. I will lose my right to post here to tell you how the hell it is.)