The Subaru Outback Wins

[inlinev]

Hmmm. The Subaru designed CVT allows faster acceleration and better fuel mileage than the 4/5 speed AT. Originally I did not like CVT transmissions but, the modern ones are great and I now think they are the future. Ed

They are the future. The fact of the matter is a CVT can keep an engine in its maximum power band when needed and it's maximum efficiency when cruising. Look at all the vehicles with CVT's which had traditional 4/5 speed transmissions, the CVT's on average seem to shave 1-2 seconds off the 0-60 and seeing about a 10-15% improvement in fuel economy.

With the CAFE requirement for automobiles at 50 MPG, you can bet CVT's will be on more manufacturers plate.

 

[Rarebit]

They are the future. The fact of the matter is a CVT can keep an engine in its maximum power band when needed and it's maximum efficiency when cruising. Look at all the vehicles with CVT's which had traditional 4/5 speed transmissions, the CVT's on average seem to shave 1-2 seconds off the 0-60 and seeing about a 10-15% improvement in fuel economy.

With the CAFE requirement for automobiles at 50 MPG, you can bet CVT's will be on more manufacturers plate.

I have no doubt that they'll get better with time. And I'm sure some of the vehicles with CVTs have found ways to take advantage of the theoretical efficiency and power benefits. However, I'd be surprised if the 1-2 seconds of 0 - 60 time and 10 - 15% fuel efficiency gains are due only to CVTs, and not to a collection of power and efficiency enhancements. Do you know of any vehicles that have shown these gains as a result of only swapping out the AT for a CVT?

 

[inlinev]

I have no doubt that they'll get better with time. And I'm sure some of the vehicles with CVTs have found ways to take advantage of the theoretical efficiency and power benefits. However, I'd be surprised if the 1-2 seconds of 0 - 60 time and 10 - 15% fuel efficiency gains are due only to CVTs, and not to a collection of power and efficiency enhancements. Do you know of any vehicles that have shown these gains as a result of only swapping out the AT for a CVT?

No. The closest comparison I can think of is the Honda CR-V, which dropped the 5 speed for a CVT. While Honda did tweak the engine for more torque (up by 18 ft/lb) the MPG increased by about 3 MPG (23/31 to 27/34).

 

[ALafya]

Do you know of any vehicles that have shown these gains as a result of only swapping out the AT for a CVT?

The Subaru Forester switched engines from the EJ to the new FB engine for the 2011 model-year.
2010 MY got 26/22/20 MPG by the EPA whereas 2011 got only a modest improvement of 27/23/21 MPG, BOTH with the same traditional 4 AT and were almost identical otherwise.
In 2014, Subaru had an all-new Forester, with the same FB engine carried-over, but with all new CVT. It achieved 32/27/24 MPG.

I believe that most of improvement is due to the CVT.

 

[ALafya]

The CR-V got an all-new engine and all-new transmission. This is not a tweaked engine.
However, fuelly suggest no real-life improvement in MPG.

 

[Unobtanium]

what issue is that?

Pilot's vibrating on the freeway, Accords burning oil, Odyssey's and Pilot's and MDX's (Acura) eating transmissions, etc.

 

[minnesotaart]

Consumer Reports reporting that Subaru's (all engines) burn too much oil.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-reports-finds-newer-cars-101209204.html

 

[gettinlm]

Consumer Reports reporting that Subaru's (all engines) burn too much oil.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-reports-finds-newer-cars-101209204.html

The article focuses on 2010-2014 models. From what I read, this issue has been (mostly) resolved, at least in Subarus.

 

[IHeartGroceries]

I think there's good reason to avoid CVT at present time.
I'm not certain if it is "the future" of automatics, or not. If it is to be, automakers will need to make some significant improvements to keep customer base happy. But, don't you know, between meeting your emissions and efficiency standards and keeping your customers happy, it's a delicate balance.

Mazda was able to use a conventional transmission in ways never done before, with the Skyactiv transmission. There's still life left in conventional automatics. And where CVTs seem to leave so much to be desired, there's DCT.

All the while, during this transitional phase of transmission engineering and implementation, personally, I'll stick with re-conceived conventional units, until all of the kinks get worked out.

 

[Rarebit]

I love the 6 speed auto in my CX-5, and I'm not a fan of ATs.

CVTs will undoubtedly see more usage as manufacturers do everything they can to meet fuel efficiency regulations, but I think hybrids and electrics are the cars of the future. They won't likely be using CVTs.

 

[GP 2004]

If CVT was so great the luxury brands (Lexus, Acura, etc.) would all use them, but they don't. I read somewhere that one of the luxo brands had developed a 9 speed trans!

 

[Unobtanium]

I love the 6 speed auto in my CX-5, and I'm not a fan of ATs.

CVTs will undoubtedly see more usage as manufacturers do everything they can to meet fuel efficiency regulations, but I think hybrids and electrics are the cars of the future. They won't likely be using CVTs.

Agreed. The 6AT in the CX-5 has impressed me VERY MUCH! It's obviously tuned for economy, but its performance is amazing. It never gets confused or hunts for gears or any of the other annoying crap even the 370Z 6A I drove once did. Within 1/4 mile I had the sales rep scared to death that the transmission in the 370Z was a factory defect I confused it so bad while proving the point of why autos suck and I hate them. The CX-5? None of that. Genuinely impressed!

 

[Unobtanium]

If CVT was so great the luxury brands (Lexus, Acura, etc.) would all use them, but they don't. I read somewhere that one of the luxo brands had developed a 9 speed trans!

ZF has, and it's used in the Acura and Jeeps, and it sucks horribly and is subject to many recalls, or maybe that's the 8-speed as well. Both suck and both have had issues.

 

[Srad600]

If CVT was so great the luxury brands (Lexus, Acura, etc.) would all use them, but they don't. I read somewhere that one of the luxo brands had developed a 9 speed trans!

I can't say which type of transmission has the best economy, but I can say when I drove one (CVT with a smaller engine) I was very unhappy with the response. It felt "mushy" for lack of a better term. In the fake manual mode, there just wasn't enough power...anywhere. That turned me off right away.

I agree, the "expensive boys" are just adding gears + turbos to smaller motors to get impressive performance/economy. I prefer that to a CVT at this point. Maybe they will get better eventually.

 

[gettinlm]

If you'd like to see how far CVTs have come, go out and drive a new 4-cylinder Accord and/or a new 3.6 (6-cylinder) Outback. Probably two of the best in the business (I'm looking at you, Nissan). I think you'll be impressed. At the very least, I think you'll forget while driving it that it uses a CVT, which would mean at least it's partly successful.

 

[Unobtanium]

If you'd like to see how far CVTs have come, go out and drive a new 4-cylinder Accord and/or a new 3.6 (6-cylinder) Outback. Probably two of the best in the business (I'm looking at you, Nissan). I think you'll be impressed. At the very least, I think you'll forget while driving it that it uses a CVT, which would mean at least it's partly successful.

If you forget you are driving a CVT, that means it's creating the illusion of a shift. Which means it's not doing what the CVT was originally intended to do---keep the engine in its peak performance for vehicle speed and load band. Which makes one ask...why bother with it?

 

[gettinlm]

If you forget you are driving a CVT, that means it's creating the illusion of a shift. Which means it's not doing what the CVT was originally intended to do---keep the engine in its peak performance for vehicle speed and load band. Which makes one ask...why bother with it?

Improved fuel economy.

 

[Unobtanium]

Improved fuel economy.

How?

 

[gettinlm]

How?

Isn't that the whole purpose of the CVT?

 

[Rarebit]

Agreed. The 6AT in the CX-5 has impressed me VERY MUCH! It's obviously tuned for economy, but its performance is amazing. It never gets confused or hunts for gears or any of the other annoying crap even the 370Z 6A I drove once did. Within 1/4 mile I had the sales rep scared to death that the transmission in the 370Z was a factory defect I confused it so bad while proving the point of why autos suck and I hate them. The CX-5? None of that. Genuinely impressed!

However, this does illustrate the advantages of the transmission keeping the engine in its peak power band whenever the accelerator is depressed. IOW, a CVT with enough development and refinement might be a pretty damned efficient unit. But like all innovations - particularly ones that rely on a different mechanical system - millions upon millions of miles, and many failures and faults are needed to find and fix all the weaknesses. I just don't think we're there yet with CVTs.

"Be not the first by whom the new is tried, nor yet the last to cast the old aside" is good advice in cars, as is "The leading edge is the bleeding edge".